origin of life...

[waterbearer94]

falcon you seem to have a deep set of beliefs or at least that you have thought out... HOW DO YOU THINK EXISTENCE STARTED? i ask because i don't understand how something could come out of nothing, or how a god could just be there, but onto something coming out of nothing... i once heard that there are these partciles or whatever that appear randomly out of nowhere and sometimes they dissapear and sometimes they stay, well if thats true where did the system of them coming out of nowhere come from, and how was there nothing? also i've heard that ppl can come from the stars like the stars contain the elements of life and blew up and it started or something... well where would the stars come from... and in the nothingness how could the conditions become right for life... how could anything be capable if there is nothing? i'm not trying to stump you i'm just confused... if god was real and good then i would want to serve him but the thing is i don't get how he can send ppl to hell for eternity if the world is just made up by him seems too harsh for a pointless made up world... like culdnt god have made himself nonexistent if he was just there so nothing had to exist and possibly suffer? my main concern is something after death... like what if its really bad being trapped for eternity in your mind or consicousness or your existence never ending? FALCON OR ANYONE HOW CAN YOU BE CONFIDENT YOU JUST DIE AND DONT GO ANYWHERE? please help

[Falconer02]

FALCON OR ANYONE HOW CAN YOU BE CONFIDENT YOU JUST DIE AND DONT GO ANYWHERE?

Simple! We aren't scared. We don't get frightened by this mysterious universe and it's age and therefore accept the most-likely possibility that this is the only life we get. I'm extremely happy to be living in a time where we're actually shedding our ancient beliefs (slowly) and finally discovering the truths about the universe around us.  That being the case, it's best to enjoy life to the fullest and try to answer these mysteries through rational/realistic means instead of wasting it on ancient mythology and man-made gods that promote the concept of a rewarding afterlife with not one ounce of proof to give it credibility. I honestly cannot understand how anyone would favor an afterlife with a god who promotes an "OBEY ME OR SUFFER FOR ETERNITY!" philosophy rather than giving the thought that this might be their one shot at life. Respectfully perhaps you can answer that one, Waterbearer?

[rghvac69]

I don't know if this will help, but no one but satan and the fallen angels have been sentenced to death. All other spiritual beings are either on the good side of the gulf, or the bad side (Luke 16), awaiting judgement. The great white throne judgement doesn't occur until after the millennium age of Christ's reign. During the millennium, those who have not been taught the truth will be taught during this time in spiritual bodies, without the hang-ups of the flesh, and with what is being taught in our churches today, very few know the real truth of God's word. After the millennium Satan is loosed and believe it or not, their will be some that still follow him. Those that do not overcome afterwards, according to the bible, will be sentenced to hell. If you want an example of what happens to the spiritual body in hell, read Ezekiel 28 v18-19. The condemned are turned to ashes from within, so there is no eternal suffering. Think about it, would heaven be a great place if you could see a relative squirming and screaming in a lake of fire? No, God doesn't operate that way. The memory of the condemned are blotted out of existence. Why wouldn't God do this? Do we want a bunch of evil beings and troublemakers with us in the eternity?

[falcon9]

falcon you seem to have a deep set of beliefs or at least that you have thought out...

While not speaking for all 'falcons'; I don't have any sets of "beliefs", (as I understand the term to mean 'convictions lacking tangible evidence'). Instead, I have a preference for using an ability to reason and examine what evidence is available.  After that process, there's usually a point where speculation arises out of such a reasoning process, (in lieu of skipping the reasoning and jumping right into speculations).

HOW DO YOU THINK EXISTENCE STARTED?

Falconeer02 was correct; that is a complex question and any non-religious answers you're likely to receive will range from simple speculations to much more complex ones.

The brief 'answer' I'd theorize is 'fractal emergence', (the longer theories arise from a complex interconnected group of mathematics concerning multiple dimensions, chaos, superstring, fractal and emergence theories).  Emergence theory is technically speculative, (pends verifying evidence), but is based upon existing tangible evidence and 'mathematical proofs' to support the viability of such theories.

i ask because i don't understand how something could come out of nothing, or how a god could just be there, but onto something coming out of nothing... i once heard that there are these partciles or whatever that appear randomly out of nowhere and sometimes they dissapear and sometimes they stay, well if thats true where did the system of them coming out of nowhere come from, and how was there nothing?

The 'something-from-nothing' aspect of the visible universe is what concerns the multi-dimensional/chaos/superstring/emergence theories.
That is, theorectical physicists, (and others), hypothesize that some particles which have been observed to "appear" & "disappear" may be doing so either by way of "quantum-tunneling", (for example, with tunnel-diodes), or by "dimensional translations", (into some other dimension than the four most are familiar with; 11-dimensional space/time theories).  These other dimensions aren't actually "nothing"; they're nominally dimensions for which only mathematical proofs currently exist, (being undetectable in our four dimensions thusfar).  There are no mathematical proofs positing the existence of 'g-d' or, any 'g-ds as most religions vaguely define such terms for "supernatural" entities.

Since we'd therefore have 'something' we can detect arising out of something we cannot, the situation isn't "something from nothing". It's theorized as more of a hyperdimensional-steady-state universe in which there was neither a 'beginning' nor an 'end', (and subsequently, no need to posit a "creator" 'g-d').  For instance, in advanced chaos theory with regards to fluid dynamics, there arise "islands of stability/order" out of chaos from the motion of the chaotic medium itself, (no "creator" necessary - such patterns appear 'spontaneous').

... like culdnt god have made himself nonexistent if he was just there so nothing had to exist and possibly suffer?

Everything that lives, dies, (so far).  No 'g-ds' are required in that premise.  In life, there is "suffering" and non-suffering, (among many other things).  No 'g-ds' are required for this to occur or be prevented.

my main concern is something after death... like what if its really bad being trapped for eternity in your mind or consicousness or your existence never ending? FALCON OR ANYONE HOW CAN YOU BE CONFIDENT YOU JUST DIE AND DONT GO ANYWHERE? please help

Since no one has returned to life after being physically dead, (religious myths notwithstanding), we are left to speculate.  If one speculates, (or avoid it entirely), by basing their 'hopes' upon religion/faith/beliefs, there is an overwhelming probability that they'd be incorrect about what happens after death.  The apparent options include speculations that; nothing happens - dead is dead, the intangible "animating energies" which make you you translate dimensionally into an intangible form of existence, (here's what the religious adherents grasp fervently at and then wildly speculate that they "go to heaven ot hell" when there's no valid evidence to support such speculation), or that those 'intangible animating energies' [life/conscious awareness] get "reincarnated" into tangible lifeforms - normally not a butterfly or shrub.

As previously mentioned, just because it's speculation, one must discern the difference between speculations arising from unsubstantiated beliefs/notions/fears/faith/random irrationality and those which have a foundation in reasoning and evidence.  Failure to do so can result in being mentally-trapped in a blind-faith paradigm and that would be "hell".

[falcon9]

I don't know if this will help, but no one but satan and the fallen angels have been sentenced to death.

How would speculative religious mythology, based upon specious beliefs/faith instead of evidence or reason, "help"?


 

[rghvac69]

He was asking a question about the afterlife, if I understood is question correctly. How would atheism "help" with this matter, if you don't even believe in an afterlife? Besides, it's good for him to hear another POV, isn't it?

[rghvac69]

Waterbearer,

I don't know what your religious beliefs are, and quite frankly it's none of my business, but if you do believe and are scared of going to hell, then repent and try to live right, and God will consider that good enough.

[falcon9]

He was asking a question about the afterlife, if I understood is question correctly.

Actually, two questions were asked.  The first related to the origins of existence/life and the second to any potential "afterlife" existence.  Being xtian, presumably you skipped the more complex question and simply posted a parroted religious/blind-faith POV instead.

How would atheism "help" with this matter, if you don't even believe in an afterlife? Besides, it's good for him to hear another POV, isn't it?

Where did I state that I was either atheist or, didn't speculate upon an "afterlife"?  Did you bother to read and comprehend the posted reply to "waterbearer" before you jumped to unwarranted conclusions?  That's one of the main problems with blind faith; that jumping to conclusions based upon the specious religious beliefs of others, (such as the collection of fictions in 'the bible'), instead of using reasoning.


"Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it, religion has actually convinced
people that there's an INVISIBLE MAN...LIVING IN THE SKY...who watches every thing you do, every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a list of ten special things that he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these
ten things, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send to
live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever 'til the end of time...but he loves you!"
-- George Carlin, (from his album "You Are All Diseased")

[falcon9]

Waterbearer,

I don't know what your religious beliefs are, and quite frankly it's none of my business, but if you do believe and are scared of going to hell, then repent and try to live right, and God will consider that good enough.

That's direct religious proselytizing, (as opposed to the indicating the option available of using reason & rational thinking in lieu of superstitious "beliefs" and "faith").

[noting, for future reference, the actual sequence of posted exchanges: 1) OP starts a thread about the origin of existence/life with some questions dubious of 'g-d'.  2) a couple of non-religious replies ensued regarding non-religious speculations.  3) religious speculations and overt bible-thumping were Initially posted by a xtian. 4) religious speculation was refuted on the basis of parroting specious claims. 5) religious adherent makes further speculations 'attacking' non-xtian viewpoints on the OP's questions. 6) xtian religious adherent directly proselytizes thus providing evidence of same in lieu of debate.]

“The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.”
-- Richard Dawkins

"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."
Scriptures, n. The sacred books of 'our holy religion', as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which
all other faiths are based."
-- Ambrose Bierce

[rghvac69]

I figured you could handle the origin of life questions. As far as assuming that you are an atheist, if you aren't I apologize, but you've said some pretty nasty things about God and religion, so maybe you can understand why I assumed that. I'm not proselytizing, for I said IF you believe, then I continued with what a believer should do if he/she is scared of going to hell. I'm not trying to force anyone to believe the way I believe. Part of his question was about the afterlife, which as a Christian concerns me more than the origins of life, and I gave him my opinion based on my faith, just as you gave your opinion on your believes. I just wanted to help the person, as you do, so chill out, and quit being so combative.

[falcon9]

I figured you could handle the origin of life questions.

And I'd extrapolated that such would be merely speciously-attributed to 'g-d' by a xtian, (even if you didn't do so as yet).

As far as assuming that you are an atheist, if you aren't I apologize, but you've said some pretty nasty things about God and religion, so maybe you can understand why I assumed that.

What, precisely is "nasty" about pointing out that a 'belief' in such a hypothetical entity is based upon "faith" alone, (with zero substantive evidence to support the belief-claim)?  Such challenges stem from logical reasoning, which may or may not include an atheistic viewpoint, (that is, logic is equivalent to atheism).

I'm not proselytizing, for I said IF you believe, then I continued with what a believer should do if he/she is scared of going to hell.

Adding an "if" doesn't change the proselytizing content of your reply to the OP.  It definitely fits the parameters defining proselytizing and denying that it is ... irrational. The entire post: « Reply #2 on: Today at 11:41:59 » Message ID: 546202 consisted of proselytizing religious propaganda, (that is, it lacked any evidentiary basis beyond an inherently self-referential dubious 'biblical' one).

I'm not trying to force anyone to believe the way I believe.

"Force" is not an integral or required aspect of proselytzing.  It's optional and excluding "force" does not alter the content of proselytizing a religious belief.

Part of his question was about the afterlife, which as a Christian concerns me more than the origins of life, and I gave him my opinion based on my faith ...

Indeed it was and yes you did; to which I replied that there is no rational basis for such beliefs, (which is true, since they're based upon "faith" and "faith" means: sans evidence).  This is an example of reasoning and not of a "belief", (at best, it would be a rational 'disbelief').

just as you gave your opinion on your believes.

I don't hold either "believes"[sic] or "beliefs" and my "opinion" has a rational basis in logic whereas yours has an irrational basis in illogic.  There's a discernable difference which seems to continually ellude 'believers', (or "beliefers"[sic]).

I just wanted to help the person, as you do, so chill out, and quit being so combative.

I fail to see how encouraging/proselytizing 'mind-blindness' would help another person.  Parenthetically, this forum is called "Debate & Discuss" and carries the inherent connotation that opposing viewpoints will likely be debated & discussed.


"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
-- Buddha

[JediJohnnie]

Not to interject myself into the conversation,but what's with this new trend of "accusing" people of "proselytizing"?Since when has it become a crime to share one's faith?Why is it being portrayed as somehow underhanded? So far I've seen several posts of people saying "whoa-I'm not proselytizing!" as if it's something to be ashamed of.

[falcon9]

Not to interject myself into the conversation,but what's with this new trend of "accusing" people of "proselytizing"?

It isn't an 'accusation' when the description is factually accurate, and it is in this instance.

Since when has it become a crime to share one's faith?Why is it being portrayed as somehow underhanded?

Who said it was a "crime"?  What religious proselytization does consist of is propaganda encouraging blind faith.  Since I oppose blind faith in any form, (religious or non-religious), I merely pointed out the evidence of proselytizing without designated it as a criminal act.  Such non-forced proselytizing, ('bible-thumping', religious 'preaching', etc.), is insidious - or "underhanded" - in that it encourages blind faith rather than a rational, reasoned approach.

Alternatively, encouraging a rational, reasoned approach does not proselytize 'logic' since logic is not a religion and encouraging another to think for themselves is directly opposite of xtian precept.

"The fundamentalists, by 'knowing' the answers before they start, and then forcing nature into the straitjacket of
their discredited preconceptions, lie outside the domain of science --or any honest intellectual inquiry."
-- Stephen J. Gould

"Physics isn't a religion. If it were, we'd have a much easier time raising money."
-- Leon Lederman
 

[SherylsShado]

@falcon9
     Sorry this is so "off-topic" it's unreal, but I didn't know how else to "message" you.  Since this thread was "calling on you", I decided to post here.  I would "message you through FC" but FC doesn't allow personal messages  (it results in the message "An Error Has Occurred! You are not allowed to send personal messages".). "Glitches" happen sometimes, I should be so lucky!! 
    Anyway, I am cheering for you in the post-mania contest---I would enter, but I think that I will have to work at that time.  (I finished my training yesterday and am back to some sixteen hour shifts again between two jobs.)
     Good Luck (not that you need it, you're a "platinum pro")!!     

[falcon9]

@falcon9
     Sorry this is so "off-topic" it's unreal, but I didn't know how else to "message" you.  Since this thread was "calling on you", I decided to post here.  

Sometimes messages in bottles do wash-up on-shore.  Although I don't perceive "waterbearer's" post as a 'calling out' to flame me or falconeer02, (or "others").

    Anyway, I am cheering for you in the post-mania contest---I would enter, but I think that I will have to work at that time.  (I finished my training yesterday and am back to some sixteen hour shifts again between two jobs.)
     Good Luck (not that you need it, you're a "platinum pro")!!     

It's a bummer that you'd have to work during Post Mania.  I did attempt to "nominate" you for it but, Kohler wants willing victims ... er, volunteers -  yeah, that's it.  Thanks for cheerleading, (will you be dressed as one too?  )