Lets Be Honest About Praying

[ptfunds]

I absolutely pray for someone if I tell them I will.  I also usually light a candle and put it on my altar.  I feel a responsibility to follow through if I have told someone I will keep them in my prayers. And also like you, I do it for some days (or longer if they are having surgery, in grief, etc.).  At night I try to think about all the people I love and wish them well and send special prayers to anyone in need.  Good topic - thanks for posting it!

[falcon9]

I feel a responsibility to follow through if I have told someone I will keep them in my prayers. 

Well, it isn't like promising to do yardwork or something tangible for someone because unlike 'prayers', at least they'd have their lawn mowed.

[falcon9]

It is possible to find multitudes of people's testimonies on the internet about how Jesus has changed their lives.    

"Despite the Bible's prohibition on magic, prayer is one of the most used forms of magic in the world. Specifically it is a form of theurgy, a type of magic which invokes the presence or actions of one or more gods. So apart from the fact that prayer is useless, it violates the laws of the Bible, meaning all good Christians should kill anyone who prays, (under the "not suffering a sorceror to live" clause)."
 
"On a more realistic note, prayer is a prime example of magical thinking in which a non-existing causal link is found between two unrelated events."

"There have been attempts to carry out double-blind experiments to prove the value of prayer most notably by the Templeton Foundation.[1] Not surprisingly, these have shown that prayer has no noticeable effect.[2] Indeed, in the study quoted, prayer had a small negative effect on the health of the patients prayed for.[3

[1] - http://www.templeton.org/newsroom/press_releases/060407step.html
[3] - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
--http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer

[SherylsShado]

...it violates the laws of the Bible, meaning all good Christians should kill anyone who prays, (under the "not suffering a sorceror to live" clause)."---falcon9

 That remark was extremely offensive .   Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another... not just "good christians".

[SherylsShado]

Great story showing how God 'enhances' one's life, and how to know God is to know real love.
William Murray--"My Life Without God"
 In this autobiographical work William Murray exposes the bizarre dysfunctional family life that led to the removal of prayer and Bible reading from America's schools including his mother’s attempted defection to the Soviet Union in 1960 (excerpt ) http://www.religiousfreedomcoalition.org/2011/04/05/the-madalyn-murray-ohair-murder/

[falcon9]

...it violates the laws of the Bible, meaning all good Christians should kill anyone who prays, (under the "not suffering a sorceror to live" clause)."---falcon9

That quote was an excerpted paraphrase from --http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer, as I quoted in my post. 

That remark was extremely offensive .   Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another... not just "good christians".

Your perception of the quote was taken out of the context that _all_ 'prayer', (no matter which religion's adherents are doing it or, even of no particular religion), "is a form of theurgy, a type of magic which invokes the presence or actions of one or more gods." The point being made was that your preferred source, ('bible'), promotes a hypocritical belief, (e.g., it's against 'doing magic' while encouraging theurgical magic in the form of 'prayer').

If you're going to snip context to become "offended", I can start doing the same at any time, (as well as expressing my opinion that professions of religious faith are considered to be extremely offensive to some).

[SherylsShado]

...it violates the laws of the Bible, meaning all good Christians should kill anyone who prays, (under the "not suffering a sorceror to live" clause)."---falcon9

That quote was an excerpted paraphrase from --http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer, as I quoted in my post. 

That remark was extremely offensive .   Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another... not just "good christians".

Your perception of the quote was taken out of the context that _all_ 'prayer', (no matter which religion's adherents are doing it or, even of no particular religion), "is a form of theurgy, a type of magic which invokes the presence or actions of one or more gods." The point being made was that your preferred source, ('bible'), promotes a hypocritical belief, (e.g., it's against 'doing magic' while encouraging theurgical magic in the form of 'prayer').

If you're going to snip context to become "offended", I can start doing the same at any time, (as well as expressing my opinion that professions of religious faith are considered to be extremely offensive to some).

I didn't 'snip' context to become offended, re-posting someone's entire post on a continual basis is boring, a waste of time and just stupid to me, sorry.  Perhaps I did take your post "out of context"...it would of helped if you had mentioned the post was an "excerpt" instead of just posting an "excerpt" and then putting a couple of numbers at the bottom that led to a source...because it made it look like the comments above it was yours and the excerpt was where the numbers where at.  (Not that it matters because it is still offensive and anyone that prays no matter what their beliefs are or whom they pray to should be free to do so just as those that don't pray at all...should be free to do so.)

[walksalone11]

Everyone has the right to what ever they believe, so long as in practicing those beliefs they do not victimize or infringe on any one else.

No one has the right to victimize another in any way, which would of course  include mental abuse caused by threats of torturous punishment for non-conformance.......or magical spells, curses blah blah blah.

[loulizlee]

"Someone's opinion of you does not have to become your reality."
-- Les Brown

[falcon9]

That remark was extremely offensive .   Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another... not just "good christians".
 
... anyone that prays no matter what their beliefs are or whom they pray to should be free to do so just as those that don't pray at all...should be free to do so.

That's already been stipulated before; anyone is free to 'pray' or not, which wasn't the point of contention.  That point is that "prayer" is an intercessory magical invocation directed at supernatural beings and as such, is theurgy, (something proscribed against by most judeo-xtian religions and encouraged by non-xtian religions).  I'm not sure how pointing this fact out can be "offensive" unless you were previously unaware of attempting to practice 'magic' by "praying".

[walksalone11]

well if what you say walksalone is true then christianity is illegal... because christians pray for gods will and his will is for me to burn for eternity! and the christian god gives ppl diseases so that should be illegal!

plus how could you prove black magic? you can't

so its legal

and if christians want to pray for gods will to be done and sinners to go to hell... then ppl can practice black magic and curse them whether it be a death curse or whatever... ppl could also summon demons legally to torment others

just like christians pray to their god to torment sinners!

so yes i have the right to use magic as long as i don't do any physically touch someone...
but i can use spiritual means to do that...
it wouldnt be me doing it... it would be spiritual forces!!!
just like ppl praying to a god and him intervening in their lifes

so you pray for me to live i could pray for you to die!!! and maybe it will come true but i wouldnt be arrested or charged

I said nothing about any thing being legal or illegal, I am speaking of basic morals. Anyone who would victimize anyone in anyway, whether that be in an actual assault, threats,mental abuse or conspire to abuse, IE; seek outside assistance to do the abuse in their stead, is in my opinion, morally wrong.

[falcon9]

Anyone who would victimize anyone in anyway, whether that be in an actual assault, threats,mental abuse or conspire to abuse, IE; seek outside assistance to do the abuse in their stead, is in my opinion, morally wrong.

Would that include those who perform intercessory magic in the form of "prayers", either in their own behalf or on the behalf of others?

[walksalone11]

Anyone who would victimize anyone in anyway, whether that be in an actual assault, threats,mental abuse or conspire to abuse, IE; seek outside assistance to do the abuse in their stead, is in my opinion, morally wrong.

Would that include those who perform intercessory magic in the form of "prayers", either in their own behalf or on the behalf of others?

If that prayer was with the intent to do harm, I believe, it is in fact morally wrong.

In addition to my previous reply, in regards to legality, it is my understanding that there are in fact laws which prohibit conduct which would cause a sensible or reasonable person to perceive that they are in danger of abuse. Which could be argued, that either many religious threats of eternal torment etc may in fact be illegal, OR, that any reasonable person would not feel these threats are credible.

[falcon9]

If that prayer was with the intent to do harm, I believe, it is in fact morally wrong.

So, "praying" for someone else, (intercessory magic), would be morally unacceptable if the person prayed-for either did not give their informed consent for such an intercession or, was adamently opposed to the religious beliefs upon which the 'prayer process' relies?

In addition to my previous reply, in regards to legality, it is my understanding that there are in fact laws which prohibit conduct which would cause a sensible or reasonable person to perceive that they are in danger of abuse. Which could be argued, that either many religious threats of eternal torment etc may in fact be illegal, OR, that any reasonable person would not feel these threats are credible.

One can conclude that either such "religious threats" are not credible, (and that can only be concluded if belief in such things is unreasonable), or that only unreasonable persons would perceive both the "threat" and the underlying belief for the threat as credible.  Logically, there are no other alternatives in this instance.

[walksalone11]

We are getting into an area here that is a bit grey to me. I have personal issues with people praying on behalf of another without that persons knowledge or consent, however, if the intent of said prayer was to attempt to be beneficial to the person being prayed for, I'm not sure I would see it as morally wrong.

The rest of Falcon9's reply is exactly what I was attempting to convey.