Lets Be Honest About Praying

[Falconer02]

If you're more comfortable being at the "end of the ropes" and calling it quits because "all human resources" have failed, then that's your option.  When that happens to me, I CAN'T call it quits because I know my God is ALWAYS there for me.  That's my option.  I can respect you enough to let you live with your choices.  I would hope for the same from you.

The problem with using the term "I know" implies that you have sustainable proof of something happening. When the term "I know" glides into the realm of defined gods, spiritual realms, etc. ones own argument implodes in on itself because of a fallacious and completely improbable foundation (not just your defined-spiritual beliefs-- everyone who openly says 'they know'). If you can share anything that can withstand elementary skepticism, go right ahead. Because if you can't, you simply don't know.

I'm not sure why you always jump right to "faith healers" when the topic of medicine comes up.  There ARE doctors that attend medical school that are Christians (along with most every other profession!). They combine what they've learned about medicine along with prayer.  They more than likely are at work in EVERY hospital.  They don't do the "faith healing", they aren't called for that.  Their calling is to work in the hospital as a doctor.

No amount of prayer is going to heal an unconcious person who's internally bleeding. A doctor will. Sprinkling prayer ontop of the doctor aspect will have no provable results-- just as if someone of the hindu faith prayed. That was my original point.

Re: "spiritual blindness".  If' it's a term that you find upsetting, I really apologize.  I used it because I can get up in the morning, listen to the news and see how world events LINE UP with what is in my Bible.  I don't have to make excuses or live in denial because there is something going on or some new finding that proves my God does not exist and is not who He says He is.  To me, that is seeing life wholly.  If you can say the same and be honest about it...well, I'm sorry but I don't see how you can.  I've been on the path that you currently are on and I know how that feels and what it takes to "not believe in God".  It's not a good path no matter how good a person is at living in denial.

Not upsetting at all! I get what you're saying, but the events happening now and in the past have always aligned with what the bible said since those vague 'prophecies' were written. People felt the exact same way you do for thousands of years now-- they all thought the world was getting worse and the end was near. It's all in how you look at it and what you want to see. However in order for a prophecy to actually be authentic, a lot of values within that prophecy need to be extremely-well defined. The bible scores a 0% on that aspect, so it cannot be taken seriously by anybody who values rationality. A while back, the user Teflonfanatic tried showing how the prophecies were coming true with biblical verses, but ultimately it made no sense since any of those verses could be applied to any time throughout history.

And I must apologize if this sounds mean, but I doubt you were ever on the same path I am on if you consider me to be in denial of this one god's existence. Through my studies, I've found that the idea of defined gods is as old as humanity itself. The biblegod is just one of the other millions spawned by ancient minds. With the amount of massive contradictions and outright malevolent problems spawned by the god of Christianity, it's fairly obvious it's fake. Besides, you're practically an atheist yourself! I just believe in one less god than you do. When you realize why you reject all of the other gods ever created, you'll then understand why I reject yours. Denial has nothing to do with it. Logic and reason have everything to do with it.

 Our paths crossed and I never told them what I knew and now it's too late for them.  Facloner02, our paths have "crossed", I have told you what I know.  It's not yet too late for you.  In my honest opinion, even though you've said you've tried church before...I think you should pray directly to God.  I think you should tell Him what's been going on with you and what you would like Him to do to reach you so that you have no questions left about whether or not He exists.  Why?  Because time is ticking and eventually it runs out for everyone.

I'm sorry to hear of your losses, but I do hope you realize that this is nothing short of a snake-oil salesman trick.  I'm trying to enjoy the one life I know I've got. There's no reason to listen to irrational fearmongering when the problem you speak of cannot even surpass elementary hurdles in reasoning.

[falcon9]

The problem with using the term "I know" implies that you have sustainable proof of something happening. When the term "I know" glides into the realm of defined gods, spiritual realms, etc. ones own argument implodes in on itself because of a fallacious and completely improbable foundation (not just your defined-spiritual beliefs-- everyone who openly says 'they know'). If you can share anything that can withstand elementary skepticism, go right ahead. Because if you can't, you simply don't know.

Exactly.  A more accurate expression of such an opinion would be that the believer has 'faith' and not that they "know" without substantive evidence.

No amount of prayer is going to heal an unconcious person who's internally bleeding. A doctor will. Sprinkling prayer ontop of the doctor aspect will have no provable results-- just as if someone of the hindu faith prayed. That was my original point.

Further, attributing what a surgeon, (even a xtian one), does medically to the auspices of 'prayer' is disengenious and a false attribution.  This can be demonstrated by using 'prayer' alone on the patient who's bleeding internally, (without any subsequent religious excuses for why that person died anyway; such as "god's will" or "lack of faith").

Through my studies, I've found that the idea of defined gods is as old as humanity itself. The biblegod is just one of the other millions spawned by ancient minds. With the amount of massive contradictions and outright malevolent problems spawned by the god of Christianity, it's fairly obvious it's fake. Besides, you're practically an atheist yourself! I just believe in one less god than you do. When you realize why you reject all of the other gods ever created, you'll then understand why I reject yours. Denial has nothing to do with it. Logic and reason have everything to do with it.

You raise an aspect of the discussion few xtian believers wish to pursue; that they have no problem believing, (without evidence), in their particular vague deital form yet, reject belief in other deital forms.  Even if professing superficial 'tolerance' of other beliefs, (or in the disbelief), of others, there are xtians who "know" their belief is correct and those of others, aren't. This does not constitute knowledge; it forms part of the basis of 'blind faith'.

There's no reason to listen to irrational fearmongering when the problem they speak of cannot even surpass elementary hurdles in reasoning.

Superstitions and reasoning are at odds at an elemental level.  Not having 'all' the answers is an insufficient basis to embrace 'faith' or, to eschew reasoning.

[queenofnines]

QON, what I meant to say was instead of "trying church", was actually "try God".

And I said..."we've done more than 'try church'"; i.e., we have "tried god".  That was my exact words to myself, actually, when I decided to become a Christian at 16: "Give God a try".

I'm wondering, QON, would it have made you happier if I had pretended to not be a Christian in the FC forums and never had said anything about God to you?

I'm not unhappy.  And no, I wouldn't want you to pretend to not be something that is very core to who you are.  You see, your dire plea for us to get god in our lives before we die...that concern, is kind of the same concern I feel for anyone who truly believes the bulk of humanity is going to be tortured forever (and deserves it).  I'm concerned for anyone who operates their life based on fantastical delusions, because they can be dangerous.

Do you value the friends that let you go on your merry way in life when you may be making a very big mistake and they know it, but they say nothing to you?

But you see here, you're confusing the term "mistake" with "opinion" or "belief".  In order for something to be a "mistake", it needs to be proven to generate harm, and having godless beliefs at the time of death has not been proven to generate harm, throughout all of history.

How one decides to spend eternity is every person's choice.

There's no decision involved (unless you decide to take your own life).  We will all end up with the same lot in death; "we" as we define ourselves won't be spending anywhere for eternity.  The atoms that make up our bodies, however, will continue to exist and become one with other things. 

So if it brings anyone any comfort, the Lion King had it right when it said, "When we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass.  And so we are all connnected in the great Circle of Life."  lol

[ULuvCeCe]

So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night. I was all mad that my thread got hijacked and went off about how it was just a question about prayer not all the other religious jazz, it was funny to say the very least

[Flackle]

So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night. I was all mad that my thread got hijacked and went off about how it was just a question about prayer not all the other religious jazz, it was funny to say the very least

Well, this IS debate and discuss. If you put up a hot topic (like one involving religion) you're going to get debate. And it may not always correspond 100% to the original topic. Perhaps if you post in your threads, you'd would have that happen.

[falcon9]

So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night.

Sounds like hit & run posting instead of being involved in the debate & discussion on the subject you raised.

I was all mad that my thread got hijacked and went off about how it was just a question about prayer not all the other religious jazz, it was funny to say the very least

"Prayer" is inherently "religious jazz" and the context of the responses in this thread have not hijacked the subject matter, (as their content shows).

[JediJohnnie]

So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night. I was all mad that my thread got hijacked and went off about how it was just a question about prayer not all the other religious jazz, it was funny to say the very least

The militant atheists will take any excuse to take a simple question about religion and run it into the same old ground.

Nothing new here.Move along.

[Falconer02]

The militant atheists will take any excuse to take a simple question about religion and run it into the same old ground.

Nothing new here.Move along.

Hey look, Falcon! It's another hit and run post! This time from a complete coward and dunce on every debatable subject imaginable! 

[falcon9]

The militant atheists will take any excuse to take a simple question about religion and run it into the same old ground.

Coincidentally, the miliant religionists will take any old excuse to run away from any challenge to blind faith.

Nothing new here.Move along.

You're correct in that those of blind faith have nothing new or substantial to add to the discussion.

Hey look, Falcon! It's another hit and run post! This time from a complete coward and dunce on every debatable subject imaginable! 

It'd be surprising were it not so commonplace.

[jcribb16]

When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?

I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray.

Yes, I do or make every effort to, right then.  I keep a journal that includes all of my family and my friends, along with their requests or certain needs at the time.  I also add any that's been asked of me, and I also pray for our country, its leaders, situations, our soldiers, and the world in general, with many of the problems that exist. 

I try to pray for each thing.  There are many days that after praying for specific people or things, that I'll pray a general prayer for God to work things according to His will, and in His time, depending on the situation.  God knows my mind and my heart and what I'm praying for.
I'm human, though, and like you said, a few days go by, and I realize that I'm not praying like I should.  But I do try to do my best.

I know some have come in here and totally switched your post around from the original thought you had in mind when posting this.  Don't let things like that distract your faith in God or your desire to pray.  Many choose not to believe in something they cannot see - therefore, they can't experience the feeling of seeing prayers answered.  They know the way and have been given opportunities for choosing differently.  Just as many of us choose God, many don't choose God.  Ultimately, that's their decision.  Just hold tight to your faith.  Great post! 

[jcribb16]

When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?

I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray.

So let's be honest about praying, shall we? If you truly wish and care for the person/people to overcome whatever struggle they're in, you will help them directly. Prayer is not a form of helping someone since it's on par with saying "I will cross my fingers for you." If you can't show the results of your efforts, you didn't do anything to help these people. I forget who said this quote-

"A thousand men can pray for a problem to be solved, but it only takes one to stand up, get to work, and solve it."

Effort > No Effort

Totally believe in prayers. God may not always seem to give what everyone wants but he has his reasons.

There are a lot of people who "directly" help people in need, whether monetary, physical work, or otherwise.  It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help.  Some people, who may be disabled themselves, and cannot help "directly," know they can pray and feel comforted knowing God has heard them.  I know you don't pray or agree with it - that's your decision.  But, for those who do pray, that's also their decision, whether you say it's not real or otherwise. 

[jcribb16]

Another anonymous quote that's a bit more famous-
"*bleep* happens!"

 
Some "call it a day" and some pray.   

This is the same logic that christian zealots tend to use in hospitals- if an injured person might not make it, it's in god's hands. If the person lives, it's a miracle of god! If the person dies,
it was all in god's plan. The christians do nothing but 'spritually cross their fingers'. Meanwhile the doctor is working his *bleep* off to save the person knowing that the person would have been dead no matter what if it wasn't for the education and technology he knows how to apply. If christians believe god "has a plan", then praying is pointless since one is pretty much asking him to change his plan with a telepathic plea that will swing something in their favor.

My logic doesn't swing in favor of the christian zealots but rather is more in line with the logic of the Christian doctors'.

I cannot think of one time in recorded history where this actually applied and worked.

Your Daily Quotation from FC's daily paid e-mail:
"We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are."
-- Anais Nin
*** No doctor required, finding a cure for spiritual blindness is as easy as finding God.

"Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions."

This man and many more others face their death with unflagging courage, blind to what eternity holds for them.  They may think they never sought refuge in "illusions", but if they surely never sought refuge in God then what they settled for actually was an "illusion".  It's the "illusion" that satan sells people that makes them feel content on the path they're walking through life without God.  The "illusion" that one can live their life and do as they please because "there is no God" and surely no hell.  There's an end coming to that "illusion", it's probably going to leave many feeling "scammed".  Nothing good ever comes from believing a master of deception. 

Hi, Sheryl! 

It's a pleasure to see you again!  I always enjoy reading your thoughtful and Godly answers to questions or challenges that are put forth to try and contradict our faith.  I hope you and yours are doing well - I've missed chatting with you - it's been awhile. 

[Falconer02]

There are a lot of people who "directly" help people in need, whether monetary, physical work, or otherwise.  It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help.  Some people, who may be disabled themselves, and cannot help "directly," know they can pray and feel comforted knowing God has heard them.  I know you don't pray or agree with it - that's your decision.  But, for those who do pray, that's also their decision, whether you say it's not real or otherwise. 

Like the doctor example I made earlier, this is an example of false attribution. You say you know, but you don't. But obviously it is the individuals decision and if it acts as a placebo (to the person praying and/or the person he/she told they were praying for), I have no real quarrel with it.

[queenofnines]

It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help.

And again we go back to the oh-so-often overlooked element: why in the world is an almighty entity able to be persuaded by the lowly ants he created?!  If he already knows all of your thoughts, not to mention what will happen in the future, prayer does nothing except make a select few feel "comforted". 

What makes YOU feel so important that you think you have any say in a "divine plan" that was crafted before humanity even existed?  Why would you assume an all-powerful being would be concerned with the petty matters that people often pray about?

Do you see the faults in your beliefs?  (That's a rhetorical question, because obviously you don't).

[falcon9]

I know some have come in here and totally switched your post around from the original thought you had in mind when posting this. 

Please quote where this has occurred.  I've read all the posts in this thread; some have been honest about "praying" & 'prayer' and some have not, (oddly enough, the ones who have requested honesty about it have not been xtian).  Both positions have replied in context and neither has "totally switched" the original intent, (unless you're implying the the original intent was not to have dissent regarding the honesty of "praying").

Don't let things like that distract your faith in God or your desire to pray.  Many choose not to believe in something they cannot see - therefore ...

...Therefore, believing in something that cannot be seen is a major aspect of 'blind faith', (since, if the subject of belief could be seen, no 'faith' would be required).

... they can't experience the feeling of seeing prayers answered. 

Or, more accurately, they don't attribute observed effects to supernatural causes.