Is there a Hell?

[JediJohnnie]

How does reality say differently?

I already posted that above.

Then I'm sorry to say your information is inaccurate.The Hebrew (which is what the early Christians were) term for Hell basically translates as Underworld/place of the dead.Not "mass grave".This is what leads to my other point about some people's misconception about "Jesus descended into Hell".The meaning was that he went to the place of the dead (afterlife),not actually Hell itself.

[JediJohnnie]

1.) It's godS. Not just one god. There's millions of them.
2.) Atheists don't want to be gods. They're just aware that they're masters of their own lives and aren't guided by ancient writings and gods created from primitive peoples.

There is only one true God,and no other.Anyone can make anything their "god".But,the real point is the Historical evidence that the Bible is indeed the word of God is monumental.

[Falconer02]

Then I'm sorry to say your information is inaccurate.The Hebrew (which is what the early Christians were)

Jews. And (as far as I know) they don't have any specific writings about the rules of the afterlife like christianity does.

term for Hell basically translates as Underworld/place of the dead

Most belief systems have an underworld. All of them tend to stem from ancient egyptian beliefs of an eternal punishment after this life (or some form of). I'm not sure about Sumerian myth though. However it's pretty easy to see that the Christian ideas of hell are really nothing too different as you go back throughout history and look at different systems.

Ultimately the belief in hell cannot be unlinked from an evil deity, so I don't know why so many people believe it.

There is only one true God,and no other

There are millions of gods. People all over the world believe differently. I think it's respectful to acknowledge that their beliefs have just as much merit as yours. Christianity is just a popular one as is Hinduism.

But,the real point is the Historical evidence that the Bible is indeed the word of God is monumental

So I take it you believe in the myths of Adam and Eve, the Ark, Exodus, Job, Jesus, etc. even though there's no real historical evidence of any of them being real/completely accurate.

[sh1980]

100% hell is there.

[gatorfever85]

I am a Christian.I studied the Bible and Hell is a real place and if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and believe he rose again for your sins that's where your headed.

[JediJohnnie]

Ultimately the belief in hell cannot be unlinked from an evil deity, so I don't know why so many people believe it.

I disagree,as far as Christianity is concerned.Satan has never been an equal with God.He is a created being.Another misconception (that I believe you touched on) is that Satan rules Hell torturing people with his pitchfork.

In actuality Satan will not be cast into Hell until the Judgement,and then he'll be suffering the Eternal punishment himself,not handing out said punishment.

[JediJohnnie]

There are millions of gods. People all over the world believe differently. I think it's respectful to acknowledge that their beliefs have just as much merit as yours. Christianity is just a popular one as is Hinduism.

So I take it you believe in the myths of Adam and Eve, the Ark, Exodus, Job, Jesus, etc. even though there's no real historical evidence of any of them being real/completely accurate.

The difference being that the bible is historically accurate,unlike the several other religions which have little to back them up.


As for evidence, archaeology is a powerful witness to the accuracy of the New Testament documents. Repeatedly, comprehensive archaeological fieldwork and careful biblical interpretation affirm the reliability of the Bible. For example, archaeological finds have corroborated biblical details surrounding the trial that led to the fatal torment of Jesus Christ—including Pontius Pilate, who ordered Christ’s crucifixion, as well as Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over the religious trials of Christ. It is telling when secular scholars must revise their biblical criticisms in light of solid archaeological evidence.

[Falconer02]

I disagree,as far as Christianity is concerned.Satan has never been an equal with God.He is a created being.Another misconception (that I believe you touched on) is that Satan rules Hell torturing people with his pitchfork.

Why would an all-powerful all-knowing being who created everything create such an obvious antagonist? Especially when he knows what's going to go down since he's all-knowing? Applying the same to mortals, since he knows who's going to heaven and hell (again-- all-knowing), isn't that malevolent? Isn't it just sadistically evil to allow the antagonist to get away with all of this? Like a child who's sticking a fork in an electrical outlet- even if the child made some mistakes, what loving parent would allow any kid to do that? What terrible parent would just stand to the side and watch it happen? Any loving god would not allow for eternal torment. If your god does have a plan, then it's fairly obvious that there's evil intent within it.

The difference being that the bible is historically accurate,unlike the several other religions which have little to back them up.

The bible is very far from being historically accurate. Not everything in it is wrong, but many of the stories are romanticized and ficticious-- especially in the OT. How can one put their trust in a book that's so obviously false in so many parts?

archaeology is a powerful witness to the accuracy of the New Testament documents.

You just grabbed all of this from here-
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-divine-rather-than-human-in-origin-

The thing is, the historical evidence surrounding Jesus is extremely blurry at best. Looking at the bible, there are 4 accounts from separate people who can't even get their stories straight.  I think it's a staple of Roman history to know that they crucified tons of people after trials and there is no archaeological evidence because of that-- a needle in a haystack if you will. Furthermore, the story of Jesus carries many of the attributes of a mythical hero pattern-

http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/mythdocuments/heropattern/default.htm

Understand many of these traits are seen within heroes that came way before Jesus' time, so explain why J's attributes are nearly identical to other heroes throughout earlier history.

[walksalone11]

There are millions of gods. People all over the world believe differently. I think it's respectful to acknowledge that their beliefs have just as much merit as yours. Christianity is just a popular one as is Hinduism.

So I take it you believe in the myths of Adam and Eve, the Ark, Exodus, Job, Jesus, etc. even though there's no real historical evidence of any of them being real/completely accurate.

The difference being that the bible is historically accurate,unlike the several other religions which have little to back them up.


As for evidence, archaeology is a powerful witness to the accuracy of the New Testament documents. Repeatedly, comprehensive archaeological fieldwork and careful biblical interpretation affirm the reliability of the Bible. For example, archaeological finds have corroborated biblical details surrounding the trial that led to the fatal torment of Jesus Christ—including Pontius Pilate, who ordered Christ’s crucifixion, as well as Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over the religious trials of Christ. It is telling when secular scholars must revise their biblical criticisms in light of solid archaeological evidence.

Sources please. "Because I said so...." doesn't score here. Not much interested in the ol' "The bible says so" or "some clergyman or other told me so" either.

[JediJohnnie]

I disagree,as far as Christianity is concerned.Satan has never been an equal with God.He is a created being.Another misconception (that I believe you touched on) is that Satan rules Hell torturing people with his pitchfork.

Why would an all-powerful all-knowing being who created everything create such an obvious antagonist? Especially when he knows what's going to go down since he's all-knowing? Applying the same to mortals, since he knows who's going to heaven and hell (again-- all-knowing), isn't that malevolent? Isn't it just sadistically evil to allow the antagonist to get away with all of this? Like a child who's sticking a fork in an electrical outlet- even if the child made some mistakes, what loving parent would allow any kid to do that? What terrible parent would just stand to the side and watch it happen? Any loving god would not allow for eternal torment. If your god does have a plan, then it's fairly obvious that there's evil intent within it.

I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of free will.God is not going to micro-manage his creations like the parent of a 3 year old.

God's punishments fit the crime.It's called justice.

[JediJohnnie]

You just grabbed all of this from here-
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-divine-rather-than-human-in-origin-

Yep.Doesn't make it any less correct.

[JediJohnnie]

The thing is, the historical evidence surrounding Jesus is extremely blurry at best. Looking at the bible, there are 4 accounts from separate people who can't even get their stories straight.  I think it's a staple of Roman history to know that they crucified tons of people after trials and there is no archaeological evidence because of that-- a needle in a haystack if you will. Furthermore, the story of Jesus carries many of the attributes of a mythical hero pattern-

http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/mythdocuments/heropattern/default.htm

Understand many of these traits are seen within heroes that came way before Jesus' time, so explain why J's attributes are nearly identical to other heroes throughout earlier history.

There is nothing contradicting about the Gospel accounts.Anyone knows that if they were identical in every detail,skeptics would cry fraud louder than they do now.

The difference is the facts are all there.The only person to whom all the thousands of prophesies written by hundreds of different writers over several centuries could be fulfilled was Jesus Christ. Christianity is not a blind faith,there are many Historical/Archaeological proofs like the ones I posted.Even the most hardened skeptic must except that Jesus Christ lived,died and His tomb was found empty.Tossing around myths and legends doesn't disprove that.

[JediJohnnie]

There are millions of gods. People all over the world believe differently. I think it's respectful to acknowledge that their beliefs have just as much merit as yours. Christianity is just a popular one as is Hinduism.

So I take it you believe in the myths of Adam and Eve, the Ark, Exodus, Job, Jesus, etc. even though there's no real historical evidence of any of them being real/completely accurate.

The difference being that the bible is historically accurate,unlike the several other religions which have little to back them up.


As for evidence, archaeology is a powerful witness to the accuracy of the New Testament documents. Repeatedly, comprehensive archaeological fieldwork and careful biblical interpretation affirm the reliability of the Bible. For example, archaeological finds have corroborated biblical details surrounding the trial that led to the fatal torment of Jesus Christ—including Pontius Pilate, who ordered Christ’s crucifixion, as well as Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over the religious trials of Christ. It is telling when secular scholars must revise their biblical criticisms in light of solid archaeological evidence.

Sources please. "Because I said so...." doesn't score here. Not much interested in the ol' "The bible says so" or "some clergyman or other told me so" either.

And this is basically the bottom line,isn't it?To most skeptics nothing short of a front row seat to the Resurrection is going to be convincing.There is proof that the bible is Historically accurate,but if it's met with a hardened heart,obviously nothing is going to convince you.

[Falconer02]

I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of free will.God is not going to micro-manage his creations like the parent of a 3 year old.

Your god does not allow for free will. If he knows past, present, and future, he ultimately controls everything you do because he has seen it before it happens. It's Fatalism which is furthest from freewill. Basically the Abrahamic god plays with a stacked deck because of his powers. The christian definition of "choice" is an illusion because the choice is already known by the god. Unless you believe your god is not perfect, one could easily conclude that since people are going to hell and he knew they would from day 1, he is malevolent. Here's a better example-

http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=17937.0

God's punishments fit the crime.It's called justice.

Hitler -- Killed millions + last minute of life he accepts Christ = Heaven.
Jew -- Led a selfless life + Concentration Camp + didn't accept Christ before he was gassed = Eternal Torment.

That's justice?

Yep.Doesn't make it any less correct.

Well with that logic Zeus, Odysseus, Superman, and Harry Potter are all true stories as well.

There is nothing contradicting about the Gospel accounts.Anyone knows that if they were identical in every detail,skeptics would cry fraud louder than they do now.

Not sure how much you've studied the NT, but there are truckloads of contradictions.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_contradictions_be_found_in_the_Gospel_narratives
http://atheism.about.com/od/gospelcontradictions/p/PassionWeek.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

You may play the 'biased' card on saying these sources are atheist/agnostic, but remember that they're quoting bible verses.

The difference is the facts are all there.The only person to whom all the thousands of prophesies written by hundreds of different writers over several centuries could be fulfilled was Jesus Christ.

Name one prophecy that came true that wasn't a self-fulfilling prophecy. Remember-- in order for something to be a legitimate prophecy, all of the details must be there-- precise names, dates, details, etc.

Christianity is not a blind faith,there are many Historical/Archaeological proofs like the ones I posted

Where? I didn't see anything.

Even the most hardened skeptic must except that Jesus Christ lived,died and His tomb was found empty.Tossing around myths and legends doesn't disprove that.

You do know that most stories in the bible are myths, right? I mean with Jesus it boils down to a romanticized hero with super powers. Very little research is needed to see the bogus supernatural qualities within the stories.

To most skeptics nothing short of a front row seat to the Resurrection is going to be convincing.There is proof that the bible is Historically accurate,but if it's met with a hardened heart,obviously nothing is going to convince you.

Hey, Walksalone and I are both open to proofs. I've given you plenty of basic rational information from various sources saying that the bible is seldomly accurate. All you have done is posted something from a biased creationist site with no proofs at all.

[walksalone11]

There are millions of gods. People all over the world believe differently. I think it's respectful to acknowledge that their beliefs have just as much merit as yours. Christianity is just a popular one as is Hinduism.

So I take it you believe in the myths of Adam and Eve, the Ark, Exodus, Job, Jesus, etc. even though there's no real historical evidence of any of them being real/completely accurate.

The difference being that the bible is historically accurate,unlike the several other religions which have little to back them up.


As for evidence, archaeology is a powerful witness to the accuracy of the New Testament documents. Repeatedly, comprehensive archaeological fieldwork and careful biblical interpretation affirm the reliability of the Bible. For example, archaeological finds have corroborated biblical details surrounding the trial that led to the fatal torment of Jesus Christ—including Pontius Pilate, who ordered Christ’s crucifixion, as well as Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over the religious trials of Christ. It is telling when secular scholars must revise their biblical criticisms in light of solid archaeological evidence.

Sources please. "Because I said so...." doesn't score here. Not much interested in the ol' "The bible says so" or "some clergyman or other told me so" either.

And this is basically the bottom line,isn't it?To most skeptics nothing short of a front row seat to the Resurrection is going to be convincing.There is proof that the bible is Historically accurate,but if it's met with a hardened heart,obviously nothing is going to convince you.

There's is much more evidence that it is almost entirely plagiarized.....but then I see you are all good with that kind of thing.