Stand for something...

[southernhorizons]

...or fall for anything! I don't usually read a lot of the posts in the Debate and discuss section, because there are so many posts attacking people's beliefs. I admire the courage of the ones who post their view on moral topics, knowing that they will be subjected to ridicule and insult. It seems that people are so "tolerant" and politically correct that they don't believe in anything, and nobody really has freedom of speech because anything that anyone says can be construed to "offend" someone.  A moral framework is necessary to the success of any culture; without it, society would degenerate into savagery. Yet anyone who sticks up for religion and morals is attacked. That mentality carries over into politics as well, which is why so many people don't seem to care that we are losing our freedoms and our identity as a sovereign nation. Tolerance and "respect" for anti-American ideas and culture are traitorous and totally against the ideas of liberty that the founding fathers envisioned.

[Falconer02]

A moral framework is necessary to the success of any culture; without it, society would degenerate into savagery. Yet anyone who sticks up for religion and morals is attacked. That mentality carries over into politics as well, which is why so many people don't seem to care that we are losing our freedoms and our identity as a sovereign nation. Tolerance and "respect" for anti-American ideas and culture are traitorous and totally against the ideas of liberty that the founding fathers envisioned.

People who are religious that stick up for religion-- that's all fine and dandy. It brings about good argument and stuff from separate sides and both sides can learn a thing or two. But freethinkers don't like it when those religions try to cross into politics and that's when WE stand up against the savage and ignorant points of view that should not cross into the laws of the land. I mean do you think a bunch of child molesters shouldn't be punished by the government because they're within religious boundaries? Do you think homosexuals should not be granted the same rights as heteros just because they love someone? Do you want creationism or ID --both pseudoscientific nonsense-- to be taught alongside actual science? Do you want government officials in office who promote an old-testament agenda? Do you want them to not think of the safety of the world because it's all gonna end anyways because of what their faith tells them? If you let things like this slide, you sacrifice freedoms that promote safety, love, and intelligence FOR EVERYONE. A lot of times religion and morals don't connect very well and I'm certain our founding fathers would agree if they were given the present data.

[DanielKorycki]

I don't see why creationism shouldn't be taught alongside evolution. Given, the class should carefully evaluate both views and come to their own conclusions.

[Falconer02]

I don't see why creationism shouldn't be taught alongside evolution. Given, the class should carefully evaluate both views and come to their own conclusions.

One is mythology and one is scientific fact. Creationism is taught in the classrooms, but only in religious and mythological studies. Not science. Throwing creationism into the science room is like telling someone to study a National Geographic or Popular Mechanics magazine alongside a Marvel X-Men comic book and telling that person to come to conclusions on which is real.

[SherylsShado]

In school, we were taught creationism as well as evolution and we were told to come to our own conclusion.  My conclusion was that creationism shows the BIG PICTURE and with science, all the little pieces fit together.   

Evolution seemed to take all the little pieces and with science tried to make all the pieces fit together and what science can't make fit together---got tossed.

Seemed to me if one wants the more accurate overall picture then creation was the way to go since the other option is to have a jumbled up big picture without the pieces really fitting.

Anyway, my point was there is nothing wrong with schools accurately teaching both views side by side and letting the students make their own decision.

[Falconer02]

Evolution seemed to take all the little pieces and with science tried to make all the pieces fit together and what science can't make fit together---got tossed.

I think your teacher was majorly biased. Nothing 'gets tossed' in a scientific study. Evolution (both macro and micro) have been proven left and right. The fossil record for most species is very incomplete (and imo they'll all be that way forever since you need every fossil in existence to make it complete), but there's undoubtedly enough proof to realize that it's fact.

Anyway, my point was there is nothing wrong with schools accurately teaching both views side by side and letting the students make their own decision

Creationism is resistant to change and that is why it cannot be taught alongside science. When new things are found out that contradict current parts of a scientific theory, the structure of science grows and benefits that study immensily. It also narrows a subject down so we can get more information about it and understand this world much better. It's willing to admit when it's wrong because that actually makes things better. This is the key difference between the 2. When new things are found out that contradict creationism, they are either not discussed, jumbled up to fit into creationism, or simply dismissed and the creationist go for personal attacks against the groups of scientists. I've seen this all of my life and I stand with those who don't want to see myth taught with actual science. When the truth is told, creationism crumbles really really fast. I want kids to have a proper education on actual science.

[amyrouse]

...like telling someone to study a National Geographic or Popular Mechanics magazine alongside a Marvel X-Men comic book and telling that person to come to conclusions on which is real.

Dude, Falconer, the XMen are totes real...real awesome.  I mean, seriously...

[SherylsShado]

Creationism is resistant to change and that is why it cannot be taught alongside science. When new things are found out that contradict current parts of a scientific theory, the structure of science grows and benefits that study immensily. It also narrows a subject down so we can get more information about it and understand this world much better. It's willing to admit when it's wrong because that actually makes things better. This is the key difference between the 2. When new things are found out that contradict creationism, they are either not discussed, jumbled up to fit into creationism, or simply dismissed and the creationist go for personal attacks against the groups of scientists. I've seen this all of my life and I stand with those who don't want to see myth taught with actual science. When the truth is told, creationism crumbles really really fast. I want kids to have a proper education on actual science.

     Your quote there, all you did was take what creationists say about evolutionists and you "turned it around".  Evolutionists are not willling to admit when their information is wrong and I'm not the first/only person that has seen it.  In school, the "evidence" that evolutionists had that "contradicted" creationism---we did discuss them and they were "dismissed" because, well...the notions were so silly that even the evolutionists had to admit some of their "finds" were incorrect.  Creationism doesn't crumble.  I don't believe the world we live in today is the same world God originally created---for example, I don't believe He created chickens.  I think He created types of birds and as time progressed, they (along with everything else) mutated into what we have now (and some of that life has been helped along by scientists).  It explains why Noah would not have had to take every single life form as we know today,onto the Ark for it to have survived.  (Although there are some "Christians" due to lack of education that will argue Noah had two of  EVERY living animal on that Ark).  Those sorts of things are where creationism & science run into "issues".  There are decent Christian scientists, they have no problem at all pairing up science with creationism.

[Falconer02]

Evolutionists are not willling to admit when their information is wrong and I'm not the first/only person that has seen it.   In school, the "evidence" that evolutionists had that "contradicted" creationism---we did discuss them and they were "dismissed" because, well...the notions were so silly that even the evolutionists had to admit some of their "finds" were incorrect.

Evolution has been proven and to say otherwise is disregarding biology as a whole-- cherrypicking bits and peices of it that the scientists may not have enough proofs for is a major fallacy. Science is ALL about finding what's wrong with things and trying to find what works and what does not, so saying that authentic scientists aren't willing to admit they're wrong is a lie. They may argue back and forth about how a peice of the puzzle works, but if the proofs show up, they will admit they were wrong. Even Albert Einstein admitted he was wrong about being skeptical of the big bang theory.

Like I said before-- finding something wrong in science is a GOOD thing. It's what scientists DO! That's their job! Why do you think there have been so many changes in the study of evolution? It's because new evidence is found and therefore scientists need to correct the structure to make it more solid. This goes with every scientific theory in existence! Creationism crumbles fast because it cannot and will not do this because religious beliefs are unwilling to change. Has the story in Genesis ever changed when the most basic flaws were pointed out? No. If just one little thing is off, it makes people question the legitimacy of their ancient writings and that's a BIG no-no with religious beliefs. All creationism does is try to align the newfound evidence with what they already believe which is the essence of a biased thought process.

It explains why Noah would not have had to take every single life form as we know today,onto the Ark for it to have survived.

I can't understand why someone cannot grasp the lunacy of that myth. Not to be mean, but how can we even discuss elementary biology if you can't even understand that if you put 2+ of each animal on a boat for 40 days, all you would have at the end is a couple stuffed crocodiles and a few nervous hippos. Animals EAT other animals. And then what are all of those animals gonna eat when they get off the boat? Fish and fungus?

There are decent Christian scientists, they have no problem at all pairing up science with creationism.

There are more historians that don't believe that the holocaust happened than there are legitimate biology-major scientists who pair up creationism with real science.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA111.html
Creationism is not science and it will continually be rejected as so. Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe, but forcing old myths into a science class is infiringing on the freedoms of giving children a good education on science. Teaching creationism is pointless in that respect because any reasonable person will realize it's fake from the get-go.

Dude, Falconer, the XMen are totes real...real awesome.  I mean, seriously...

You got me there. Did either of you see First Class? LOVED IT!!!

[SherylsShado]

falconer: Loved your cartoon, it re-instates what I said earlier

"that creationism shows the BIG PICTURE ("conclusion") and with science, all the little pieces ("facts") fit together.   Evolution seemed to take all the little pieces ("facts") and with science tried to make all the pieces fit together and what science can't make fit together---get tossed, making for a jumbled Big Picture ("conclusion").

God gave us all the details in the Bible so the only "work" left is to notice how the facts confirm it.  Mere "godless-man" marches on past all that and looks at the facts, scratches their head and then concocts what they "think" is the best explaination.  They have to keep changing their minds when their theories begin to have holes.  God's Conclusion is Holy...NO "holes". (No need to keep "changing" the "story", the facts STILL confirm what He said.)

I don't believe there is any "lunacy" to the Noah event.  Before the Flood, there is no indication in the Bible that any of the animals ate meat or were violent and vicious.  Genesis 9:2 says the animals didn't even have a fear of man until AFTER the flood.  The following verse is where God gives every plant and animal to man for food. Meat eating would have actually been encouraged by the Flood, since all the lush forests of plant life would have been destroyed and until new forests had time to grow, there wouldn't be much food.

(**There isn't any problem at all discussing elementary biology. I  have some college in a non-Bible based, community public college  (major:zoology/biology) and worked in a couple of zoos during that time.  I have two science awards from the professor for completion with the top grade (of two separate research assignments) regarding animal behavior.   I've been into animals my entire life, I don't have any problems at all grasping their behaviors, their diet, the effects of stress, etc.  Anyone that has ever known me--- no matter what age I was at in my life, knows animals are where I "shine".  )

"but forcing old myths into a science class is infiringing on the freedoms of giving children a good education on science."

so,it's ok for school to teach kids as long as they teach them only what YOU think they should be taught?  THAT says "freedom of choice" to you?  
Standardized tests typically show that private school students are more educated than public school students...and guess what?  Most private schools present BOTH sides to the students and let THEM choose.

  

[SherylsShado]

falconer,
     You have your opinions, I have mine.  Everyone is entitled to their "own" opinions.  I'm not trying to make my "opinion/s" yours.  I do have alot of respect for you,  I think you are very intelligent or I wouldn't waste two seconds ever reading or responding to your posts.
     Any day, this life we know could be over for us.  If it turns out you were right about everything, then all I've caused you is some slight frustration which I'm sure you were able to laugh off.  So then, glad to entertain you.
     If it turns out that I was right and God exists, then He would have to be a God of His Word. Everything He said in the Bible is how it will have to be.  There aren't going to be any second chances, no "funny jokes", no words that you could say that are going to help you.  Before that day comes, I hope you diligently give your "facts" another look.  Most things that you have posted from the Bible that seem like "lunacy" to you are because, I think, you need to study what the Bible is actually saying.  (If I sound "condescending", that's not my intention.   I just don't know how to re-word it and still get the point across.)  I find alot of your posts entertaining, it does frustrate me to think that someday...if you don't get your life right with God, that there won't be anything that I could do to help you.
     Keep your eyes, ears and heart open...just in case your facts aren't all they should be.      
     

     

[Falconer02]

Mere "godless-man" marches on past all that and looks at the facts, scratches their head and then concocts what they "think" is the best explaination.

I'll rewrite this as how the system actually works IRL since I think you're not understanding how we evolve our theories-
An intelligent person marches past ancient ideas and speculations and looks at the facts in a rational manner, scratches their head and comes up with theories of what they think is the best explanation. This way of thinking has saved billions of lives and made our lives ridiculously easier.

They have to keep changing their minds when their theories begin to have holes.

Apply this thinking to the theory of medicine or gravity and explain to me what's wrong with doing this. Again, discovering holes is a good thing because it means they're solving problems that they didn't know were there before-- it helps everyone get a better grasp on the practice when questions arise even if they don't have an answer yet.

Before the Flood, there is no indication in the Bible that any of the animals ate meat or were violent and vicious.

Not in the bible. Just in the entire fossil record. And considering the fossil record, civilization records, layers of earth, etc. don't show any sign of a flood, it's pretty obvious it didn't happen.

Anyone that has ever known me--- no matter what age I was at in my life, knows animals are where I "shine

I am aware! And I'm glad you are that way  

so,it's ok for school to teach kids as long as they teach them only what YOU think they should be taught?  THAT says "freedom of choice" to you?

I'll throw this one back at you and say- is it okay for school teachers to blantantly lie to their kids with absolutely no backing to what they're saying? Kids being the ones most susceptible to biased and false information? For instance I'm sure we were both taught that good ol' christopher columbus discovered america and he was praised for doing so (he has his own holiday and all), but were we actually taught the truth? Did Columbus really discover america? Was he nice? The answer to those is no- there were people here before us and he was a horrifically bad slaver and *bleep*. He does not deserve this praise and we were taught obvious lies because of naivety and ignorance and they should really get rid of that day and old tradition. The same goes for creationism-- obvious lies with no backing with nothing but an agenda to keep the facts down. One fears change, the other welcomes it.

Standardized tests typically show that private school students are more educated than public school students...and guess what?  Most private schools present BOTH sides to the students and let THEM choose.

There are plenty of reasons why private schools have better test scores than public schools and I assure you it has nothing to do with teaching creationism. But I gotta go here and I may not be back till tomorrow so I'll continue later. Have a good one!

[SherylsShado]

The Bible and the Great Flood (watch this video falconer and note the part about what the Bible says in 2 Peter 3:3--- see what was predicted)...then keep going, it explains why we both could have the same exact data but come to different conclusions.http://njbiblescience.org/presentations/noahs_ark/noahs_ark.html

Not in the bible. Just in the entire fossil record. And considering the fossil record, civilization records, layers of earth, etc. don't show any sign of a flood, it's pretty obvious it didn't happen.

"Modern geology cannot explain fossil graveyards and many geologists admit to this. These graveyards are dramatic evidence that an era of the world ended with enormous violence.

It has been admitted that fossilisation on such a calamitous worldwide scale could only have occurred through the action of immense flood waters so enormous as to defy explanation. Sedimentary rock is formed by the action of water passing over strata, and fossils are only found in sedimentary rock.

The fossils we have discussed would have been buried rapidly, ensuring enough delay in decomposition to imprint the fossils that we see. The groupings of the different animals in large quantities might also suggest that they took refuge in these caves, or were simply washed there." ---excerpt from http://s8int.com/boneyard3.html

[DaWilsonator]

It seems that people are so "tolerant" and politically correct that they don't believe in anything, and nobody really has freedom of speech because anything that anyone says can be construed to "offend" someone.

To offend somebody is their own problem, they can only dish things out and not take it.

[vicogden]

You are wrong!  Just totally wrong!  How dare you post that!  (Please note the sarcasm!)... of course I'm just kidding!  I agree with you 100%.  I don't know why people feel the need to attack each other.  It's one thing to disagree with a post and write the reason why you disagree in a respectful way; it's another thing to personally attack someone for their beliefs.  Tolerance is a word.... let's spread the word!