Not the typical gay marriage/religious musings

[shernajwine]

I had someone the other day who was talking to me about gay rights and how religious people use their prejudice at the polls. (no it wasn't amyrouse  ) But it got me thinking:

Firstly, that's not an issue that concerns me personally when it comes to my vote, there are some moral issues that sway my vote but that is not one of them. I don't vote for a candidate because he is against gay marriage, it just so happens that is usually tagged onto the ticket with the other values I find important to be represented. So that being said, I really don't think that Christians should get so up in arms about gay marriage and I'll tell you why.

In the bible, there was no marriage license required in order to get married. Whatever type of ceremony or event or declaration that they used there was no government telling anyone that they could or couldn't get married. The bible does talk about submitting to government (Romans 13:1-2) so today in order to be legally married a license is required but I wonder if God requires a marriage license to consider two people married?

When I was 18, I wanted to move out from my parents, my fiance was 6 months younger than me and was only 17. His mother had abandoned him and disappeared a year before and so we couldn't get married because he was considered a minor and needed a parents permission (dad wasn't in the picture) My parents and my pastor knew that I would move out no matter what and so my pastor agreed to have a unofficial ceremony with the promise we would get a license when he turned 18 and make it legal.

Well, we never got a license and anytime I brought it up he said that, that piece of paper did not make us any more married and committed to each other so why did it matter. I agreed, but I still wanted it to be legal. He never got a license and 3 years after we were married he cheated on me and took me and our daughter to live with my parents. After I was no longer wanted, he refused to ever say that he had ever been married but was only living with his girlfriend. I, to this day, consider that I was married. We made vows before a pastor and before God and witnesses and I think that made us married. After all, that's what marriage is right? Making a life long commitment to one person?

With my current husband, we lived together for a year and he kept saying he didn't want to get married, even though we lived as a married couple and the license wouldn't have changed anything. Eventually, he asked me to marry him and we made it legal and guess what....NOTHING CHANGED. Our commitment wasn't made more or less by a piece of paper or the approval of the government.

I think there is an emotional attachment to the whole marriage license thing.

So first, I think Christians are trying enforce a law that is pointless, especially to God. If homosexuality is a sin, then it's a sin whether it's legal or not. So what is anyone accomplishing by denying them a piece of paper?

Secondly, I think homosexuals are getting a little nutty about something that doesn't make a difference to their commitment to one another? Is all the fuss just to get people's acceptance for their lifestyle choice? If so that's a little overdramatic. After all WHO CARES who accepts you? Is it nice to be accepted? Sure, but making it raging political issue is crazy to me. I loved my first husband and we lived together, had a baby, filed our taxes together and never had a legal marriage. And we were judged by other Christians who knew we didn't have a marriage license just like gay people are judged for their sexual orientation (albeit more harshly).

So, in conclusion....WHAT is all the fuss about?

[travislang]

well i can assure you if its a religious reason you wanting, you wont find it.   look in the bible you wont find any mention how it is wrong or right. so i will have to say go with your feelings on the subject

[shernajwine]

I'm just interested in why either side gets so crazy about this issue. It's not illegal for people to be homosexual and live together and in most cases, adopt children, so what does making it illegal for them to get married accomplish? And for the homosexual, what difference is it, being legal, going to make in your partnerships?

[Falconer02]

I will say they're just shooting for the same equal rights (on a gov't level--registered partnerships, civil unions, etc.) as heterosexuals have it. Putting a "BAN" on something that some people may want is kind of rude when nobody really gets hurt by it. Maybe it's an acknowledgement that they've come a very long way from the ol' days of constant abuse and ridicule. A stamp that means they're no longer looked at as horrible disgraceful people in the eyes of the public and that their rights run parallel with everyone elses. But you're right about it just being a piece of paper. It's really not much of a difference in my book. Still, they should be able to get it recognized by the state.

[shernajwine]

Well Falconer, I agree that to be acknowledged and having the same rights as your other fellow human beings would be great. But the fanatic fervor with which some people pursue this seems outrageous to me. After all, having the marriage made legal will not make gay bashers or homophobic people change their mind about them. How long has slavery been abolished and people given equal rights regardless of skin color? It hasn't prevented racist hate crimes from the major to minor offenses. Hell, the KKK still exists!

I think it's one thing to be passionate about something you believe in but to go fanatic about it as some do is silly to me, especially since the results of the acknowledgment are trivial. But for me personally, I say, if they want it that bad give it to them.

I just still don't honestly know what the religious group hopes to accomplish by continuing to vote against it. Maybe someone from that perspective can post back to me. 

[jordandog]

You really surprised me with some of your observations on this one, Sherene. You knew you and your husband could get that 'piece of paper' anytime you wanted to so it had less meaning to you/him. What if someone told you that you had to have a paper stating you were allowed to worship in the way you wished or in the church of your choice, BUT you had to convert to a different religion in order to get it? It wasn't that long ago either that IT WAS illegal in many states for homosexuals to live together and be openly gay. You said you didn't understand the fanaticism when "the results of the acknowledgment are trivial"? You have never had to worry about YOUR rights as a heterosexual white woman, so maybe it is trivial to you. I am going to post the same thing I put in another thread about this, the "How does everyone feel about same sex marriage" thread. It goes directly to the thought about it being "just a piece of paper":

***You live with someone for 25 years, one of you dies, and the estate and every single thing you have acquired/built together is null and void in the eyes of the court. You have no death benefits (please don't bring 'common-law' marriage into the picture because it does not apply) and are basically left with a pile of debt. You might have health insurance, but what if the person you are with is diagnosed with a life altering/threatening disease? The costs can run into the millions, literally, for treatment. You cannot just carry another person on your health insurance because you have lived together for many years. So, now you are both wiped out financially and if death results, back to the first scenario of surviving 'spouse'. Your home can be taken from you if you are not on the deed and if you have children together, someone who is 'just a partner' will not necessarily be the first one the courts grant custody to.

There are countless other ramifications you face by NOT HAVING "just a piece of paper". Right, wrong, or in between - it doesn't matter legally what two people in a partnership feel should happen. The courts and the laws, as they stand now, require a legally binding agreement ie that Certificate of Marriage as protection for both parties. To think any other way is pure naivete. I have seen too many couples, opposite and same sex, suffer because of it.***

I could write much more about this, but I am put-off and a little angry at the moment, so it is best to keep my fingers off the keyboard right now.

[jbcratchet]

This is a controversial issue.

[evilpixiemagic]

i have been in a relationship for many years (hetero) and have no plans of marriage. not being married hasn't stopped us from having children, or purchasing a house or being happy in general..marriage is over-rated. a marriage certificicate does not necessarily grant you rights for custody , that is a whole seperate legal issue, it will not keep u from losing your home (ever heard of a will?) and not being married would actually be a good thing when it comes to medical bills because the other person is not responsible for the debts (most hospitals have aid to help with bills ( i work at one) i have found its BETTER not to be married and have yet to find a "ramification" for not being married.with  that being said..

i dont really care who gets married, out of all th problems this country has i find this to be a the very bottom of my caring list and i feel it should be at the bottom of the govs. them letting people get married is not gonna create jobs, make sure people have food, that children are safe or that WE are safe and free to even worry about such things as marriage.

[jordandog]

@evilpixiemagic,
I am going to guess you are fairly young, don't know any gay people/couples or much about the topic (because IF you did, you wouldn't have said WHAT you did), not very well educated on how things in life actually work when something happens (the comments about wills, custody), might work in a hospital but you surely are not on a professional level there (yeah, let the rest of us take care of your/anyone's unpaid medical bills - NO, NOT everyone qualifies for help with them), and lastly.....the OP never asked if this topic or situation would 'fix' the problems of the world, that's not what the discussion is even pertaining to.

Welcome to the world of 'Debate & Discuss' - you'll definitely hear what people think.

[DarkMistress]

I will try to keep my reply short... LOL

It mainly has to do with RIGHTS. They want the RIGHT to marry legally just like other couples, plain and simple. Just like through out history... women wanted the right to vote, and work, just like MEN had, and earn large incomes like men, so THEY fought for it. African Americans wanted the RIGHT to be free, get paid for labor, vote and etc... just like WHITE people had the RIGHT to, so they fought for it. I could go on here, but I hope you get the idea. Through out history, people, or a type of people have fought for the same RIGHT or RIGHTS given to other types of people. We are supposed to be "all created equal" but we are not.

I know Christians will stand by "if is a sin in GOD's eyes, and they should not be allowed to be married and etc..." BUT if you know your history, or if not then look it up... but back in the day, during slavery and before, Christians and others said the EXACT same thing about African Americans. They used to preach that African Americans were NOT GOD's children, and etc... so they too were not allowed to get married for it would be considered a "sin" and etc... It used to be a SIN for women to work, or do anything other than stay home, cook, clean, get pregnant, and take care of the husband. According to the bible, a woman could be stoned to death for not obeying her husband, or for not giving him a child. Yes this is old testament, but it is STILL what was true back then, and what we humans believed, and what the bible said GOD felt or etc...

As with most things, things change, times change and etc... so NOW well now as in since back then, LOL, all of a sudden it is NOT a sin for African Americans to marry, it is NOT a sin for a woman to work, it is not a SIN for a woman to have a life separate from her husband, and to vote and etc... YET it is STILL a sin for the same sex to get married? I am sorry but it is just to damn convenient, to me. I feel it is just to much based on what the current society feels and thinks about the matter or issue at the time. More importantly it is just what MAN thinks, or feels is a SIN, RIGHT or ACCEPTABLE at the time that influences things more than anything.

Another thing to sort of prove my point here... homosexuality is simply that, regardless if it is two men, or two women, it is still "homosexuality"... BUT in today's times, and for a LONG time, actually though out history too, 2 women together has been more accepted than 2 men. THIS IS BS. If you want to bash homosexuality, then bash BOTH types, not just men/men. Do not tell me "oh it is a sin and wrong for two men to be together" yet turn around and have a threesome with your wife/girlfriend and another woman, or watch a *bleep* and *bleep* to two women, or fantasize about them and etc... THAT is just plain prejudice, and it is bias.

[DarkMistress]

On a side note, I used to feel marriage was just a piece of paper... and when I married my husband when I was 19, I married him ONLY for convenience, and it was JUST a paper marriage. Now however, since meeting my boyfriend 7+ years ago... the relationship him and I have, how much I love him, the life we have and etc... I would give anything to be officially married to him. To be able to say I am his wife, to have everyone call me Mrs. ... and etc... (why we are not married is complicated... lets just say his first wife refuses to give him a divorce, and we can't push the issue since there are tax issues between them unresolved, plus he owes back alimony) So YES there is a BIG difference between being married officially, and not. It goes beyond commitment. It is about even the smallest things, like using his last name, I love it when the few places like pizza hut for example I told them my name was his last name, and that is what they call me when I talk to them to order pizza. I know it might sound dumb to some people, but little things like that is all I have in that department. It is also an issue of other things, legally, because not all states allow it, and so you have the issues of insurance, children and etc... too.

I had a friend a few years ago... his partner passed away. They had both been in their 50's, and had been together since they were in their teens. Moved in together, and lived together since about 20. They bought a house, and lived together there for over 30 yrs. They loved each other beyond anything. When his partner died... his partners family took control of the body, funeral, and etc... they even banned him from attending, had the police there, who actually DID prevent him from going into the funeral home. Before he actually died, while he was in the hospital, the family also banned him from his partners room. He was not able to be there when the man he loved for over 30 years, spent his life with, grew old with and etc... died in a hospital bed. He wasn't able to help lay the body to rest at the funeral, and after the funeral, the family had the body moved to a location, out of state, and he never found out where. THIS IS BEYOND wrong. This family disowned their son when he was 14, kicked him out of the house at 15, because he was GAY, and they never even said two words to him all of his life after that. Yet they had ALL of the RIGHTS in the end. My friend had NO RIGHTS, regardless of the life they had, had together, the love, or etc... Even his last will and testament was not listened too, it was disregarded, because by law the parents had the rights... it was a tragedy, that killed my friend inside, and before the year was up it killed him literally too.

[shernajwine]

Thanks guys for the responses.

@Jordandog~It wasn't my intention to make anyone angry. In all honesty I just wanted to know where both parties were coming from. I do enjoy the fact that I'm allowed to be legally married and I understand that it's important to the gay community to have that same right. I wasn't questioning the importance, only that if the only intention was acceptance then it seemed like a battle of principle more than anything else. I do see what you're saying though. Having the piece of paper makes a difference in legal matters concerning the things you mentioned.

I have a couple of gay friends but neither of them ever talk about marriage and so I have never heard from anyone dealing with the issue of marriage rights on a personal level. Thanks for responding and calm down! lol 

But I still want to hear from a person against gay marriage as to what they hope to accomplish by denying them those rights?

[jongarton]

please correct me if i'm wrong... don't we have a constitutional right to a pursuit of happiness? if so, why does the government want to decide which is best for a couple no matter if its a homosexual couple or a heterosexual couple. I am a heterosexual male who has both friends who are homosexual and heterosexual and my opinion is just that an opinion. But there are worse things going on in this country than trying to break a bond of happiness no matter what!

[Falconer02]

*reads Jdog's post and slaps head*

I admit it. I'm a naive idiot. I can't believe those facts didn't even enter my head. Ughghgghghglks;flgksdg

[DarkMistress]

Thanks guys for the responses.

@Jordandog~It wasn't my intention to make anyone angry. In all honesty I just wanted to know where both parties were coming from. I do enjoy the fact that I'm allowed to be legally married and I understand that it's important to the gay community to have that same right. I wasn't questioning the importance, only that if the only intention was acceptance then it seemed like a battle of principle more than anything else. I do see what you're saying though. Having the piece of paper makes a difference in legal matters concerning the things you mentioned.

I have a couple of gay friends but neither of them ever talk about marriage and so I have never heard from anyone dealing with the issue of marriage rights on a personal level. Thanks for responding and calm down! lol 

But I still want to hear from a person against gay marriage as to what they hope to accomplish by denying them those rights?

I am not against it, however I can say this... a huge % of straight marriages end in DIVORCE, and most married couples are miserable (not ALL), if you ask the average husband or wife, they would say if they were honest, that marriage was not what they thought it would be, that they are un-happy, and etc... A lot of husbands/wives say they wish they had not gotten married, or that it is more headaches as a married couple, than a single/dating couple. There is a hell of a lot more responsibility being married from doing taxes, to insurance, and etc...

SOOOO... some might say or think, even those of us NOT against gay marriage, though we might say "WHY would you fight so hard for something that most people are miserable, depressed, and unsatisfied in? What a lot of people wish they had never done? Why would you invite into the Gay community something that would possibly only bring more headaches, and heartaches? So all of this to say, you should not possibly fight for the right to be married, and the Gay community just might be happier than the straight community in the long run, LOL.

But then again it comes down to rights... and they want the right to be just as miserable, or unhappy as any other straight married couple, LOL.