To the Christian who thinks only those who accept Christ will go to heaven....

[4darling]

   Here's what I believe; I believe that there is a Creator and that we are not given just what we can handle but more so we learn/or not how to get through the bad times. I believe that those whom bring great suffering upon others will and do pay a price either during their life here on earth and/or after death. I believe that "religion" is political and that the catholic church should not be above the law in matters of abuse towards children. All humans should be allowed to believe in what they will - God or no. Bottom line - you either believe or you don't. 

[Dbaxley234]

@ Sherna - That was a very deep hearted response you posted. And it does serve a very good point. It is important to forgive those who do you wrong - even for those who do not believe in God, because even if they don't believe they shouldn't let something fester & bring them and their lives down. Especially something like those incidents is difficult to "get over" or get passed. But the important thing is for a person's own conscience and ability to rise above such tribulations - it is necessary to forgive that person. Just like with your husband - sometimes something stronger and better than before can come from the worst situations.   

[shernajwine]

Dbaxley, you are right. Belief in God or not, it's important to forgive the people that do you wrong. And it's not even for them it's for you, unforgiveness is like poison. However, for me personally I have found that until I put God in the equation I just can't do it. Especially in cases like what I mentioned; those are very hurtful and life altering things that happened to me and things that happen ALL the time unfortunately to many many people. It's hard to recover from and I couldn't have done it without support from people who love me and a God who forgave me so that I could forgive them. If anyone can do it without God, more power to them, but I couldn't do it lol.

[healthfreedom]

Salvation is not based on our own good works. It is a gift from God based on our faith in Jesus Christ, his son. Ephesians 2:8 - 9. Yes, if you or I did all thaose wonderful works, helping multitudes, but if we reject Jesus Christ, we will spend eternity in hell. That's the biblical answer.

[502mania]

so according to the christian belief, god judges you based on what you believe rather than what your actions in life are??

sidenote. you guys keep saying "thinkin a sin is just as bad as doing it". well that means that thinking a good deed is just as good as doing it. that's why that part makes no sense to me. also, you cant say the degree of a sin dosent matter. saying there are none that are worse than others, that their all just as bad, is illogical in my eye. what if the legal system was that way, what if you got a life sentence for whatever you did. whether it be littering or murder. that makes no sense.

[dell9031]

Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life.  Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God.  If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart.  But you must acknowledge his sovereignty in your life.  Evil happens also but we all have choices freely to obey.  There is no one, not one, who is good enough to get into heaven.  Only Jesus was good enough and he was the Son of God.  You have to go through him, he speaks for you, and says "this one is with me Father".

[502mania]

Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life.  Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God.  If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart. 

so if i were a mass murderer and child molester, would the non-glory go to god for putting that "wiring" and desire in my heart?

[502mania]

also, dosent that "god putting things into your heart and mind" thing poke a huge hole in the "free will" theory?

[Falconer02]

also, dosent that "god putting things into your heart and mind" thing poke a huge hole in the "free will" theory?

So does the whole "all-knowing" aspect of this god, does it not?

[shernajwine]

so according to the christian belief, god judges you based on what you believe rather than what your actions in life are??

sidenote. you guys keep saying "thinkin a sin is just as bad as doing it". well that means that thinking a good deed is just as good as doing it. that's why that part makes no sense to me. also, you cant say the degree of a sin dosent matter. saying there are none that are worse than others, that their all just as bad, is illogical in my eye. what if the legal system was that way, what if you got a life sentence for whatever you did. whether it be littering or murder. that makes no sense.

I can say a degree of sin doesn't matter because like I said, God is purely and completely Holy. Therefore there is no degrees of holiness to the Creator, so a sin of stealing is a complete offense to a completely holy God. God doesn't measure sin the way men do. Mens' views on morality are subjective, one man may see stealing as wrong no matter what, another may justify theft by saying that the people he stole from deserve it. It doesn't work that way with God. Therefore sin is sin. You can think it's illogical but you are asking Christians why they believe what they believe so they will use the bible to explain it because that's what we base our beliefs in.

Also the bible says that faith without works is dead (James 2:20). Men are not justified by works they are justified by faith however a person who has faith will show evidence of it by their works. "By their fruits you shall know them" Mat 7:16

It is a Christians responsibility to be a living example of God's love. We are his hands, feet, eyes, ears, and mouth and we are expected to use our lives as a witness, therefore good works are important in a Christians life, it's just that good works alone will not save you.

God judges the heart of men. What is the heart of men? The mind basically, our self that only we and God can know. If in your heart you want to kill somebody or rape somebody or hurt anybody in anyway, God sees that and judges that. If you desire good things towards people, and your heart is focused on God then you will act on those things and it will be second nature. So there is no need for a provision to "think a good act and it's as good as doing it".

also, dosent that "god putting things into your heart and mind" thing poke a huge hole in the "free will" theory?

No and I'll give you an example. A year or so ago I was driving home and I live in a big city so it is common place to have people pan handling at highway intersections and various places. Some of them are scammers some of them are not you never really can tell. So sometimes I give them my change or (once I gave a man my kolaches I had just bought) other times I ignore them.

Well this one particular time I drove past a man who had a sign that he was hungry. I got a few feet down and I felt a VERY strong urge to go back and help him. I felt that God wanted me to take him and get him something to eat....I pulled over on the side of the road and struggled internally with this decision for nearly 10 mins. I had heard enough stories about women being murdered by men they picked up on the side of the road and I was afraid. So I ignored that strong urge and went home without helping him. I did not trust God at that point. And even though he "put it in my heart" to help that man, I "told" him no with my actions of disobedience.

So, God put it in my heart, I had a choice to listen to him or not. God knew the choice I would make but he did not force what he wanted on me. Therefore, nothing, including him being "all - knowing" has violated my free will.

[Falconer02]

Well this one particular time I drove past a man who had a sign that he was hungry. I got a few feet down and I felt a VERY strong urge to go back and help him. I felt that God wanted me to take him and get him something to eat....I pulled over on the side of the road and struggled internally with this decision for nearly 10 mins. I had heard enough stories about women being murdered by men they picked up on the side of the road and I was afraid. So I ignored that strong urge and went home without helping him. I did not trust God at that point. And even though he "put it in my heart" to help that man, I "told" him no with my actions of disobedience.

So, God put it in my heart, I had a choice to listen to him or not. God knew the choice I would make but he did not force what he wanted on me. Therefore, nothing, including him being "all - knowing" has violated my free will.

Sounds like you did the logical thing rather than going with your heart on this one. And who could blame you? You have a husband and kids, right? You might not even be here if you had tried to help. g4u! But this is still not an argument for free will (especially with what I stated in my last post). You don't know for certain that your god did that. To us, it obvious you just did the smart thing and you're just placing the pat-on-the-back on your god rather than yourself. I could go on but I'm kinda tired here so I'll end with this- glad you're alive. If you are in a hospitable mood and end up in the same situation, bring some mace and have it ready. And only give hobos food. Not money. I have my own hobo stories too 

[shernajwine]

Well this one particular time I drove past a man who had a sign that he was hungry. I got a few feet down and I felt a VERY strong urge to go back and help him. I felt that God wanted me to take him and get him something to eat....I pulled over on the side of the road and struggled internally with this decision for nearly 10 mins. I had heard enough stories about women being murdered by men they picked up on the side of the road and I was afraid. So I ignored that strong urge and went home without helping him. I did not trust God at that point. And even though he "put it in my heart" to help that man, I "told" him no with my actions of disobedience.

So, God put it in my heart, I had a choice to listen to him or not. God knew the choice I would make but he did not force what he wanted on me. Therefore, nothing, including him being "all - knowing" has violated my free will.

Sounds like you did the logical thing rather than going with your heart on this one. And who could blame you? You have a husband and kids, right? You might not even be here if you had tried to help. g4u! But this is still not an argument for free will (especially with what I stated in my last post). You don't know for certain that your god did that. To us, it obvious you just did the smart thing and you're just placing the pat-on-the-back on your god rather than yourself. I could go on but I'm kinda tired here so I'll end with this- glad you're alive. If you are in a hospitable mood and end up in the same situation, bring some mace and have it ready. And only give hobos food. Not money. I have my own hobo stories too 

Because I believe in God I believe I can know when it's God wanting me to do something and when it's just me. If God wanted me to go back and help that man (which is what I believe) then nothing would have happened to me. Not every pan handler is a murderer. So I'm not giving my God a pat on the back, I'm saying that he wanted me to do something (help the man) and I didn't do it.  The very strong urge I had for no particular reason, I believe, was God "putting it in my heart". And by not following that urge I told God no. Therefore making a free will choice. So I don't believe I did the smart thing, I believe I disobeyed and missed a wonderful opportunity to help somebody who was hurting.

To you, because you don't believe in my God, you will not attribute my urge to him. But the argument is "isn't God putting things in your heart a violation of free will". Me, believing that God wanted me to help that man, thus my sudden urge to turn around and do so, and effectively denying that urge shows that it does not violate free will for God to put things on someones heart.

Your last post had to do with the all knowing issue. I state again, though probably to no avail, that knowing is not causing. I have been through this particular argument before and this isn't' the thread to go into it again. But that's as plain as I can put it. Knowing an event will take place is not the same as causing it to happen. So I don't believe that God being all knowing violates free will in any way.

I could go on but I'm kinda tired here so I'll end with this- glad you're alive

Thank you very much I'm glad to be here 

[Falconer02]

Me, believing that God wanted me to help that man, thus my sudden urge to turn around and do so, and effectively denying that urge shows that it does not violate free will for God to put things on someones heart.

Yeah I know what you're trying to say. It's just an appeal to emotion, but I won't go into that part. From my view- obviously not all hobos are crazy, but considering what the environment was like and how you were feeling and that the idea came into your head that this could be dangerous, you just made a smart choice. Religious beliefs aside, you were wise to not put yourself in any danger not only for the sake of yourself but for those that you care about and the ones that return the favor. I've been there plenty of times myself, but I don't blame it on some deity speaking in my head. I blame curiosity, past experiences, warnings from others, common sense, etc. during the decision making.

Knowing an event will take place is not the same as causing it to happen. So I don't believe that God being all knowing violates free will in any way.

I keep seeing these ideas for the argument try to explain things while not remaining at the base of it. You have this deity that created the universe and knows everything. Think about that word. This god therefore knows the cause and effect of everything already and ultimately knows what path one will take beginning-to-end. There's no choice in any matter at all when put on that mantle. That aspect alone eliminates free will. On human terms, cause has nothing going for it here when put against a being who already knows everything.

[shernajwine]

I've been there plenty of times myself, but I don't blame it on some deity speaking in my head

I know that you would not attribute to God what I do because you don't believe in him. But that's not the argument I'm dealing with. Assume God does exist for just a moment, IF God indeed put it in my heart to help the hobo, it did not violate my free will because I did not do what he put in my heart to do.

This god therefore knows the cause and effect of everything already and ultimately knows what path one will take beginning-to-end.

How does him knowing the cause and effect of everything take away a person's choice? God knew he would put it in my heart to help that man, he knew I would sit in my car for 10 mins and end up not helping him. How does him knowing any of that, effectively remove my choice to have helped the man?

[Falconer02]

know that you would not attribute to God what I do because you don't believe in him. But that's not the argument I'm dealing with. Assume God does exist for just a moment, IF God indeed put it in my heart to help the hobo, it did not violate my free will because I did not do what he put in my heart to do.

All I'm trying to state here is this is an unjustified debate due to an unknown variable and it falls on a fallacy. But you attribute the decision with god? Whateva. That's coo.

How does him knowing the cause and effect of everything take away a person's choice? God knew he would put it in my heart to help that man, he knew I would sit in my car for 10 mins and end up not helping him. How does him knowing any of that, effectively remove my choice to have helped the man?

Because he knew what choice you'd make beforehand- him being all-knowing prevents a free will choice because it was predetermined. What I'm statng here is it's just an illusion of choice with this specific god. Not actual choice. Ultimately any explanation to this conundrum leads to fatalism. An example of what's going on here is you're convinced that a book infront of us is floating whereas I can see the coffee table it's sitting on.