To the Christian who thinks only those who accept Christ will go to heaven....

[angelhome]

Can Our Own Good Deeds Get Us to Heaven?
~Jack Graham

One thing I’ve always loved is sitting back and watching a good football game. And I especially love watching games where it’s raining and the field looks like a pigsty. You can always tell who gets the most playing time by looking at whose uniform is the muddiest!

But imagine if one of those players, caked in mud, so dirty you can’t even see the numbers on his jersey, walked off the field without even changing and tried to get a table at a nice steakhouse. Now, I don’t think they’d let him in, do you? No, he’d be thrown out!

And apart from Christ, that’s a small glimpse of how we would appear before God. If we stand in his presence in our own righteousness, we too will be thrown out. I wouldn’t trust the best 10 minutes I’ve ever lived to get me into heaven because my good works are not enough!

But that’s why there’s grace. The Bible says that when we trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, our old garments are taken off and we are given new robes of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10).

So when you put on God’s garment of salvation and the robe of righteousness by trusting in Christ, you will receive the righteousness of Jesus and will be faultless when you stand before the Father’s throne.

Taken from “Removing the Dirty Garments and Putting on God’s Righteousness” by Power Point Ministries (used by permission).

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Just remember this: We will ALL stand before the Judgment Seat and give an account for our lives. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before His Father!!

Great way to put it I had not read that, so it was well said. Hope you made some inroads with the blind.

[ttwigg]

So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?

 
yes because it is not by our works, or deeds that gets us to heaven , but by the grace of God, who gave us His Son the perfect sacrifice for all of man's sins so that we may be forgiven, so that we can go home to live with Him the rest of our days

[alina6]

Can Our Own Good Deeds Get Us to Heaven?
~Jack Graham

One thing I’ve always loved is sitting back and watching a good football game. And I especially love watching games where it’s raining and the field looks like a pigsty. You can always tell who gets the most playing time by looking at whose uniform is the muddiest!

But imagine if one of those players, caked in mud, so dirty you can’t even see the numbers on his jersey, walked off the field without even changing and tried to get a table at a nice steakhouse. Now, I don’t think they’d let him in, do you? No, he’d be thrown out!

And apart from Christ, that’s a small glimpse of how we would appear before God. If we stand in his presence in our own righteousness, we too will be thrown out. I wouldn’t trust the best 10 minutes I’ve ever lived to get me into heaven because my good works are not enough!

But that’s why there’s grace. The Bible says that when we trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, our old garments are taken off and we are given new robes of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10).

So when you put on God’s garment of salvation and the robe of righteousness by trusting in Christ, you will receive the righteousness of Jesus and will be faultless when you stand before the Father’s throne.

Taken from “Removing the Dirty Garments and Putting on God’s Righteousness” by Power Point Ministries (used by permission).

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Just remember this: We will ALL stand before the Judgment Seat and give an account for our lives. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before His Father!!

Well said

[shernajwine]

I didn't read this whole post but I find it wrong and ironic that priests who rape or molest little boys will still go to this heaven...really?!?! Just because they believe in God?! Sometimes I think believing in Christ is just an excuse to "always be forgiven". Btw, not everything in Bible is pretty.. you have to weed through it to get to "good stuff". Just saying.

You are so right

Jude 4 reads My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.

I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.

The words "I believe" are not a free pass to live the life of a deviant and still go to heaven.

[Falconer02]

I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.

Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here either-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, has a bad family life, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone but him/herself?

[teflonfanatic]

I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.

Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here either-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, has a bad family life, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone but him/herself?

Again this person will probably fall under Acts 24:15, technically where all screwed up mentally even if we deny it.

[shernajwine]

I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.

Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone else but him/herself?

This is a very emotionally charged and upsetting issue, so I want to give a completely honest answer in how I believe and why. But understanding you don't have my beliefs, you will not agree with me obviously. So I'm taking you at your word that you are not looking to debate my answer. Because my answer is based on my faith in a God that you don't believe in. Keep that in mind, while you read my response.

Firstly, I start with a premise that the spiritual things of this world are completely real. I believe that satan uses people to kill steal and destroy every good thing in a persons life. He can use anybody, christians, wiccans, muslims it doesn't matter.

So I believe that a crazed pedophile who beats and rapes an 8 year old and later turns to Christ for help, if in his heart he hates what he did and wants forgiveness he will get it. Because the bible doesn't say that Jesus died for only certain sins. The 8 year old has suffered a traumatic experience, not just physically but emotionally and spiritually. But I believe satan will use that experience to destroy the rest of that 8 year olds life, IF the 8 year old as he/she grows up lets him. Satan could use what the rapist did to guilt the rapist and shame him for the rest of his life, causing depression and low self worth which could lead to more rapes and other horrible acts. Whereas when he turns to Christ he is made a new person and he begins to hate what God hates and love what God loves. He is a new person.

The 8 year old as an adult has the opportunity to let God heal his hurts. God will use other people to show his love to this hurting person and he/she makes a choice to live in bitterness and drink his life away or let God love on him/her and change his/her life. It's not the 8 year olds fault of course but satan had a plan to ruin more than one life with such an act. And each individual makes a choice of what path to take and who to serve. The bible says you either serve God or satan. If you aren't living for God, satan is your master. If the child ends up rejecting God later in his life, he made a choice.

I have said before, I have been raped. And it took a long time before I realized that hating that person and letting that wound never heal was causing other areas of my life to suffer and that's exactly what satan intended. I don't know whether the person who raped me regrets what he did but because I forgave him and because I prayed that God would save him and change his life...I was able to move on and it doesn't even phase me to talk about it anymore. I don't hate the person, I pity him and hope that he found God. The hurt is completely gone. I made a choice. There are trials that come in peoples life and though not everything that comes their way is caused by them, they still have a choice to make with what to do with it.

My husband cheated on me while I was pregnant and I thought my world was crumbling to be betrayed in such a way. I already had one failed marriage from a cheating husband and here it was happening all over again. BUT somebody told me, take the face off the person and realize that there is a spirit using them to kill steal and destroy my family. And I went home and I looked at my husband and I looked at my babies and I decided I wasn't going to let that happen. So I prayed for the girl who my husband cheated on me with. And I was able to forgive her, and not only that but I wish I knew where she was today because I want to hug her and tell her that I forgive her and I want to tell her about a God who loves her so much that she doesn't need to find solace and validation in married men! I forgave my husband and our marriage has only gotten better!!

I could have let that pain and hurt destroy something precious but I didn't. Through knowing how much God has forgiven me of my horrible deeds and how much he loves me I could forgive and love other people. It took some effort on my part, to put down my "flesh" and sinful nature to want revenge and to let that all build up but I made a choice and I'm the better for it.

This answer was long and I wanted to give examples of my own traumatic experiences because it helps you to understand that I'm not being unsympathetic to the person in your scenario. I know you don't believe in my God, but I do and thus the basis for my answer.

I am really hoping that you are not going to call me delusional at this point because I decided to give a vulnerable answer so that I could be personal with you. Please don't abuse that. I am at your mercy.

[IceKittyNM]

I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.

Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone else but him/herself?

This is a very emotionally charged and upsetting issue, so I want to give a completely honest answer in how I believe and why. But understanding you don't have my beliefs, you will not agree with me obviously. So I'm taking you at your word that you are not looking to debate my answer. Because my answer is based on my faith in a God that you don't believe in. Keep that in mind, while you read my response.

Firstly, I start with a premise that the spiritual things of this world are completely real. I believe that satan uses people to kill steal and destroy every good thing in a persons life. He can use anybody, christians, wiccans, muslims it doesn't matter.

So I believe that a crazed pedophile who beats and rapes an 8 year old and later turns to Christ for help, if in his heart he hates what he did and wants forgiveness he will get it. Because the bible doesn't say that Jesus died for only certain sins. The 8 year old has suffered a traumatic experience, not just physically but emotionally and spiritually. But I believe satan will use that experience to destroy the rest of that 8 year olds life, IF the 8 year old as he/she grows up lets him. Satan could use what the rapist did to guilt the rapist and shame him for the rest of his life, causing depression and low self worth which could lead to more rapes and other horrible acts. Whereas when he turns to Christ he is made a new person and he begins to hate what God hates and love what God loves. He is a new person.

The 8 year old as an adult has the opportunity to let God heal his hurts. God will use other people to show his love to this hurting person and he/she makes a choice to live in bitterness and drink his life away or let God love on him/her and change his/her life. It's not the 8 year olds fault of course but satan had a plan to ruin more than one life with such an act. And each individual makes a choice of what path to take and who to serve. The bible says you either serve God or satan. If you aren't living for God, satan is your master. If the child ends up rejecting God later in his life, he made a choice.

I have said before, I have been raped. And it took a long time before I realized that hating that person and letting that wound never heal was causing other areas of my life to suffer and that's exactly what satan intended. I don't know whether the person who raped me regrets what he did but because I forgave him and because I prayed that God would save him and change his life...I was able to move on and it doesn't even phase me to talk about it anymore. I don't hate the person, I pity him and hope that he found God. The hurt is completely gone. I made a choice. There are trials that come in peoples life and though not everything that comes their way is caused by them, they still have a choice to make with what to do with it.

My husband cheated on me while I was pregnant and I thought my world was crumbling to be betrayed in such a way. I already had one failed marriage from a cheating husband and here it was happening all over again. BUT somebody told me, take the face off the person and realize that there is a spirit using them to kill steal and destroy my family. And I went home and I looked at my husband and I looked at my babies and I decided I wasn't going to let that happen. So I prayed for the girl who my husband cheated on me with. And I was able to forgive her, and not only that but I wish I knew where she was today because I want to hug her and tell her that I forgive her and I want to tell her about a God who loves her so much that she doesn't need to find solace and validation in married men! I forgave my husband and our marriage has only gotten better!!

I could have let that pain and hurt destroy something precious but I didn't. Through knowing how much God has forgiven me of my horrible deeds and how much he loves me I could forgive and love other people. It took some effort on my part, to put down my "flesh" and sinful nature to want revenge and to let that all build up but I made a choice and I'm the better for it.

This answer was long and I wanted to give examples of my own traumatic experiences because it helps you to understand that I'm not being unsympathetic to the person in your scenario. I know you don't believe in my God, but I do and thus the basis for my answer.

I am really hoping that you are not going to call me delusional at this point because I decided to give a vulnerable answer so that I could be personal with you. Please don't abuse that. I am at your mercy.

@Sherna.....

What a powerful testimony you have, and a response that is obviously full of God's wisdom!!! 

[jcribb16]

I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.

Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone else but him/herself?

This is a very emotionally charged and upsetting issue, so I want to give a completely honest answer in how I believe and why. But understanding you don't have my beliefs, you will not agree with me obviously. So I'm taking you at your word that you are not looking to debate my answer. Because my answer is based on my faith in a God that you don't believe in. Keep that in mind, while you read my response.

Firstly, I start with a premise that the spiritual things of this world are completely real. I believe that satan uses people to kill steal and destroy every good thing in a persons life. He can use anybody, christians, wiccans, muslims it doesn't matter.

So I believe that a crazed pedophile who beats and rapes an 8 year old and later turns to Christ for help, if in his heart he hates what he did and wants forgiveness he will get it. Because the bible doesn't say that Jesus died for only certain sins. The 8 year old has suffered a traumatic experience, not just physically but emotionally and spiritually. But I believe satan will use that experience to destroy the rest of that 8 year olds life, IF the 8 year old as he/she grows up lets him. Satan could use what the rapist did to guilt the rapist and shame him for the rest of his life, causing depression and low self worth which could lead to more rapes and other horrible acts. Whereas when he turns to Christ he is made a new person and he begins to hate what God hates and love what God loves. He is a new person.

The 8 year old as an adult has the opportunity to let God heal his hurts. God will use other people to show his love to this hurting person and he/she makes a choice to live in bitterness and drink his life away or let God love on him/her and change his/her life. It's not the 8 year olds fault of course but satan had a plan to ruin more than one life with such an act. And each individual makes a choice of what path to take and who to serve. The bible says you either serve God or satan. If you aren't living for God, satan is your master. If the child ends up rejecting God later in his life, he made a choice.

I have said before, I have been raped. And it took a long time before I realized that hating that person and letting that wound never heal was causing other areas of my life to suffer and that's exactly what satan intended. I don't know whether the person who raped me regrets what he did but because I forgave him and because I prayed that God would save him and change his life...I was able to move on and it doesn't even phase me to talk about it anymore. I don't hate the person, I pity him and hope that he found God. The hurt is completely gone. I made a choice. There are trials that come in peoples life and though not everything that comes their way is caused by them, they still have a choice to make with what to do with it.

My husband cheated on me while I was pregnant and I thought my world was crumbling to be betrayed in such a way. I already had one failed marriage from a cheating husband and here it was happening all over again. BUT somebody told me, take the face off the person and realize that there is a spirit using them to kill steal and destroy my family. And I went home and I looked at my husband and I looked at my babies and I decided I wasn't going to let that happen. So I prayed for the girl who my husband cheated on me with. And I was able to forgive her, and not only that but I wish I knew where she was today because I want to hug her and tell her that I forgive her and I want to tell her about a God who loves her so much that she doesn't need to find solace and validation in married men! I forgave my husband and our marriage has only gotten better!!

I could have let that pain and hurt destroy something precious but I didn't. Through knowing how much God has forgiven me of my horrible deeds and how much he loves me I could forgive and love other people. It took some effort on my part, to put down my "flesh" and sinful nature to want revenge and to let that all build up but I made a choice and I'm the better for it.

This answer was long and I wanted to give examples of my own traumatic experiences because it helps you to understand that I'm not being unsympathetic to the person in your scenario. I know you don't believe in my God, but I do and thus the basis for my answer.

I am really hoping that you are not going to call me delusional at this point because I decided to give a vulnerable answer so that I could be personal with you. Please don't abuse that. I am at your mercy.

Sherene, your answer is very thoughtful, and I think you handled the question very well.  Like IceKitty said, you have a powerful testimony.  It's something that you did not have to share, but did because of your heart.

I had a similar experience with a family member.  Going through Christian counseling showed me how important it was to forgive that person, which in turn helped me to achieve the victory of that situation.  If I didn't have the Lord guiding me through it with the help of certain people,  I hate to think where I would be today.  Reading your post has helped to remind me of how fortunate I was to have the Lord in my life.  Before the person died, he did ask the Lord in his heart and asked for my forgiveness.  Not only me, but many people throughout the years that he had hurt in one way or another.  Once he had word back that everyone living had accepted his apology, he died.

Thank you again, for sharing it as part of your answer.

[HuffmanFamilyof4]

if god is truly real,then tell me who created him/her. Christianity is just another form of a business and they get you to fear something that is not real so you can talk to yourself(praying out loud) and go to the place of business(church) and give the business owner a percentage of your income(tithes) so the owner can make a living at it,some churches make quite a good income at that.

[jcribb16]

if god is truly real,then tell me who created him/her. Christianity is just another form of a business and they get you to fear something that is not real so you can talk to yourself(praying out loud) and go to the place of business(church) and give the business owner a percentage of your income(tithes) so the owner can make a living at it,some churches make quite a good income at that.

Great question.  It's hard to understand but God was not created by another God, etc.   John 1:1-2 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God."   (I just posted this answer to a very similar question in another thread, so it was fresh on my mind.)

[HuffmanFamilyof4]

god just didn't apear that's why it gets hard for me to believe in something that is not or can not be seen

[Falconer02]

Thanks for sharing, Sherna. Wow, I did not know that (or I must have forgotten from when you told us a long time ago). That's really awful what you've been through.  If I would have known this, I would have never gotten into any heated debates here knowing certain peoples backgrounds on the subject. And no, I don't think you are delusional (in this sense being discussed atleast! lol). I understand the situation now and I must say you have quite a noble amount of courage to both admit this and to forgive those people. Definitely something a man would have difficulty doing! I am envious of that. But again, thanks for sharing. I'm glad you've found peace within others' atrocious behavior. Very good and informative post.

Christianity is just another form of a business and they get you to fear something that is not real so you can talk to yourself(praying out loud) and go to the place of business(church) and give the business owner a percentage of your income(tithes) so the owner can make a living at it,some churches make quite a good income at that.

Scientology really brought this idea out into the open. I see this basic reasoning used a lot, and I agree.

god just didn't apear that's why it gets hard for me to believe in something that is not or can not be seen

A sound perspective on the thread topic, Mr. Huffman. If you wouldn't mind, may I ask of your background pertaining to this subject?

[shernajwine]

Thanks for sharing, Sherna. Wow, I did not know that (or I must have forgotten from when you told us a long time ago). That's really awful what you've been through.  angry7 If I would have known this, I would have never gotten into any heated debates here knowing certain peoples backgrounds on the subject. And no, I don't think you are delusional (in this sense being discussed atleast! lol). I understand the situation now and I must say you have quite a noble amount of courage to both admit this and to forgive those people. Definitely something a man would have difficulty doing! I am envious of that. But again, thanks for sharing. I'm glad you've found peace within others' atrocious behavior. Very good and informative post.

Thank you for allowing me to be transparent with you. And to be honest I really wouldn't change those things that happened to me. The things that I have been through shaped who I am. And because I went through those things, when a person comes to me who was raped and beaten when they were 8 years old, I can comfort them from a place that I can relate to and sympathize with. And hopefully through my testimony they realize they don't have to drink themselves into an early grave but can find peace and a new hope, just like I did. 

[tzs]

It's always been pretty funny to me how "god's wisdom" and religious redemption automatically shows up when you have screwed up royaly!!!!!