To the Christian who thinks only those who accept Christ will go to heaven....

[jcribb16]

I would like to respond, if I may, to this also.  It seems the main disagreement implies that there is an action by God upon a person that negates His freedom to choose. So that would mean the the person making a choice is affected by God's knowledge to such an extent that in essence he really doesn't have that freedom after all.  If that's so, can you prove it logically?

We know that God's knowing what we will choose is a function of His omnipresence, since He is in all places all the time.  That in itself, is hard to understand.  However, this question or disagreement is always going to be unanswerable concretely because when you think about it, we all work in time.  God works outside of time. God deals with the past, present, and future realities and only He knows what has been chosen, is being chose, and will be chosen.  Another idea of this, too, is that the past, present, and future were created for us for our understanding of time.

[DarkMistress]

I have skimmed or read through most of the posts in this topic... and I know I should not reply... but I can't help it...

I am not going to state exactly what I personally believe... but on both sides I wanted to add a few things. Science has supposedly proven the that we humans have evolved from primates. Yet the Bible states that GOD created us. Both sides say they have "proof" yet both can NOT be right. There are even those out there who believe, that we were placed on this planet by an alien race. There are countless other theories out there, with supposed proof, or believe behind them.

My thoughts on the Bible... it was a book written by MAN. Yell all you want, damn me all you want, but it IS true. Along with that being said, NONE of the writers of the Bible were the actual people who supposedly went through what ever it was that was written in it. All the stories, or chapters, or versus and etc... were all "handed down" by the original person, through generations and finally one day put into the book. And I am sorry but, there is nothing that can make me believe that all of those things written are 100% accurate. I believe truly that some, most or maybe even ALL, of them were changed, or maybe someone added their two cents so to speak, or maybe even took part of the story out, hell maybe even sensationalized part of them for better reading, like they do with movies based on true stories. I am not saying that the Bible is not "real" or that GOD is not real, etc... I am just saying that the Bible was written by MAN, and no one alive today can say what actually happened back then, because they were not there.

Now based on this thought process... it is really hard for me to believe certain things about religion. One big question I have is how can so many different religions be wrong? Christians say they are the only ones allowed into heaven, Catholics say they are, Baptists say they are and etc... I find it hard to believe that ONLY one religion is right, and every other one is wrong, and if you are not in the right one you will go to hell. I also really have a hard time believing that a man or woman can lead a life of udder evil, possibly raping, killing multiple people, molesting children, and etc... go their whole damn life, then suddenly when they are old and dying, or maybe they get cancer and are dying, and they suddenly "find GOD" and as long as they ask for forgiveness, and "get saved" that they will go to heaven when they die? I just find this way too hard to believe, and honestly IF it is true... I sometimes wonder if I would really want to go to heaven after all?

This is the same said for what another person in the forums said about curing cancer, hunger and etc... and that person would go to hell, because he didn't officially get "saved" before dying? So if this thinking is right... then that means a hell of a lot of evil people who have molested children, killed innocent people, tortured, raped or worse are living it up in heaven, and good people who have taken care of others, lead a loving, and good, honest life, maybe cured things, fed the hungry and etc... are all burning in hell... that is beyond screwed up if it is true. I just can not wrap my brain around it to accept it.

Ok I think I need to stop typing now, because some of the other things I would like to say on this topic, might cause a lot of yelling and cursing LOL.

[dell9031]

Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life.  Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God.  If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart. 

so if i were a mass murderer and child molester, would the non-glory go to god for putting that "wiring" and desire in my heart?

Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit".  Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven.
And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory.  Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven.  Clean slate.

[DarkMistress]

Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life.  Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God.  If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart. 

so if i were a mass murderer and child molester, would the non-glory go to god for putting that "wiring" and desire in my heart?

Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit".  Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven.
And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory.  Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven.  Clean slate.

*rolls eyes*

I really think sometimes this is just an excuse some people use, to get away with things.

"oh no I molested my neighbors child" - goes and confesses, repents, and asks forgiveness

next day, month or year later

"oh no I molested my neighbors child again"  - goes and confesses, repents, and asks forgiveness

a week later the parent finds out and confronts the molester, and the molester kills the parent out of anger for the parent threatening to tell the police

"oh no I killed someone" - goes and confesses, repents, and asks forgiveness

(this has been the molesters path for many years, after molesting children as well as teens, some even repeatedly)

a few days later, molester/murderer gets caught by police, and dies in a car accident on the way to jail, BUT he goes to HEAVEN because just the day before he repented again and asked forgiveness again.

meanwhile....

that child who was molested and lost a parent, grows up helping other molested children, and children who have had parents murdered. He/she does so many great deeds in their life that no one can keep count of them. This person never does anything to harm another person, never breaks a law, helps anyone and everyone in need. When he/she is in their teens they slip in the shower and break their neck, and die. He/she goes to hell, because they never repented and asked forgiveness for sins.

At that moment the molester/murderer is watching from heaven, which he likes doing from time to time to feed the sick need still in him... and he see's the teen who he once molested die, and he see's his/her spirit go to hell. The molester/murderer kicks himself and grumbles, wishing now he had not repented and asked forgiveness, so that he could be in hell with the one he harmed.


OK YEAH... I know this was a little on the dumb side, LOL, but hopefully you and others got my point. It sounded like a joke, and it was a joke in a way, but if what you and others say then THIS (if it really happened) could be TRUTH and NOT a joke? Seriously how dumb is THAT?

[Falconer02]

OMG DARK MISTRESS I HATE YOU SO MUCH STOP TYPING OMG ITS SO AWFUL UR GOING TO HELL UR A TERRIBLE PERSON SINCE YOU NOT CHRISTIAN

jk, girrrl.   I'm glad you replied. Do moreso here in D+D. You're just pretty much bluntly telling it how it is, so I don't see why anyone would freak out at you. Please continue if you want, but you need to understand one thing that I'm starting to see all over-- the pathways to reasoning the believers use is pretty far-fetched no matter where you go. What I see a lot of is there's this emotional blanket that covers most logic/rationale/skepticism. If that's the case, it's usually pointless arguing correctly because you're going to strike the emotional chord and just get showered with fallacies left and right.

Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit".  Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven. And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory.  Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven.  Clean slate.

 

[DarkMistress]

OMG DARK MISTRESS I HATE YOU SO MUCH STOP TYPING OMG ITS SO AWFUL UR GOING TO HELL UR A TERRIBLE PERSON SINCE YOU NOT CHRISTIAN

jk, girrrl.   I'm glad you replied. Do moreso here in D+D. You're just pretty much telling it how it is, so I don't see why anyone would freak out at you. Please continue if you want, but you need to understand one thing that I'm starting to see all over-- the logic the believers use is pretty far-fetched no matter where you go. What I see a lot of is there's this emotional blanket that covers most logic/rationale/skepticism. If that's the case, it's usually pointless arguing correctly because you're going to strike the emotional chord and just get showered with fallacies left and right.

Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit".  Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven. And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory.  Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven.  Clean slate.

 

I never said I was not Christian. I am a Catholic, and YES I DO believe in GOD, YES I believe in Jesus, and that he died for our sins. YES I know the Bible, YES I have faith, YES I have a personal relationship with GOD. This is all truth, HOWEVER I have a hard time believing in a lot of things that MAN has done in regards to this, and things that MAN has said, and DOES say in regards to this.

All I know is when I die, You die, every single person walking this earth dies, THEN, and only THEN will you find out the REAL truth. Then you will find out if you go to heaven, or hell, or stay in limbo, get reincarnated, or etc... Only then will you possibly find out that molesters and murders are filling up heaven, OR if they are all in hell. Only then will you even find out IF there really IS a heaven/hell. For all we honestly know, when we die our "souls" or spirits could be transported back to the alien mother ship, LOL. I am not saying I believe this, I am just saying NONE of us really know for sure, UNTIL we die and find out.

You can call me a fake if you want, or say I am not a true believer, I do not care, it is not anyone's place to judge me on this, and it does not matter, because those people are NOT going to be the ones to decide what happens to me when I do die. I just strongly have issues with "MAN" not GOD. And yes the Bible is one issue I have problems with in some aspects, but again that is because I believe MAN wrote it, and that it is not 100% accurate to possibly what GOD might have wanted put in it, or not put in it.

An example of this... in the old testament it clearly says for example you are NOT supposed to work on the sabbath day, or 7th day, or we can say Sunday. Yet as times changed, and people could no longer just sit home and do nothing so to speak on that day, when the NEW testament came out, suddenly it says in there that you CAN work on this day. I TRULY believe that this was changed by MAN, to accommodate the times, and to accommodate MAN. Other examples... what about eating anything with "hoofs" aka pigs? What about touching, being with, hell even being in the SAME room as a woman who was on her menstrual? These things were SINS, and not allowed in the old testament. Then suddenly in the NEW one they are allowed? WHY? Because man decided eating pigs was ok? Because man did not want to have to stay away from women while on their periods? Though based on how some women act while on their periods... I don't know why in the world they would want to change that one, LOL.

As for those who want to preach that the Bible was written word for word what was told to them... LMFAO, ok here is something to think about... again I repeat what I mentioned in another post, nothing written in the Bible was written BY the person who went through it, saw it, experienced it. It was all "handed down" knowledge. So HERE is the questions... have you ever played that game in school or etc... where the teacher lined up all the students, then he/she whispered something into the ear of the first person, then that person whispered it to the second person, then second whispered to third and etc... THEN at the end, after all the students did this, the last one would say out loud what they were told? Ever notice that it is rarely IF ever the exact SAME thing the first person was told? Think about it... Another question, what about Noah's arc? Are we to believe that when GOD wiped out the world with that water, but only Noah, and his family were spared on the arc. SO the point here is, that every story in the bible before Noah, was remembered and passed on BY Noah? Every detail, fact, and etc...?

Ok last thing: I believe GOD is all knowing, and etc... So if GOD is perfect, infallible, AND all knowing... then WHY, are there contradictions in the Bible? Why are there things inaccurate in the Bible? Why are there things NOT in the Bible that IF it was written as GOD wanted it written then he WOULD know and have those things put in it? This just does not make sense, but what DOES make sense, is that MAN wrote the Bible as he wanted, based on what he was told, I believe he forgot, or just left out things that he wanted to leave out, or added things he felt personally should be in there. I believe the reason some things were left out, is because MAN is NOT all knowing, and at the time he did not know about them. I could give examples of this as well, but I will leave it alone for now, and end this post. Any feedback is welcomed, and I hope some of you really read and think about the things put here.

[shernajwine]

Darkmistress

I can completely relate to what you are saying about the bible. At one point in my life I got so frustrated with the bible i ripped all the pages out and burned them. I didn't not believe in God but I began to seriously question his character. Ironically it wasn't until I came into this forum and began being challenged about what I believe by the non Christians here that I took on a quest, so to speak, to find out the truth.

Many things I thought were contradictory about the bible were a misunderstanding on my part. And what I found gave me more trust in the bible than I ever had before. One sight that has helped me tremendously is www.godandscience.org. I truly believe that if you take the time to search out that website you will find some things there that help make sense of some confusing issues. 

[jcribb16]

I really like the site that Sherene likes, too.  I also like http://www.gotquestions.org/about.html.

[DarkMistress]

Darkmistress

I can completely relate to what you are saying about the bible. At one point in my life I got so frustrated with the bible i ripped all the pages out and burned them. I didn't not believe in God but I began to seriously question his character. Ironically it wasn't until I came into this forum and began being challenged about what I believe by the non Christians here that I took on a quest, so to speak, to find out the truth.

Many things I thought were contradictory about the bible were a misunderstanding on my part. And what I found gave me more trust in the bible than I ever had before. One sight that has helped me tremendously is www.godandscience.org. I truly believe that if you take the time to search out that website you will find some things there that help make sense of some confusing issues.  

I am not basing anything here on ONLY my personal knowledge. So it is not a matter of my own "misunderstanding" of what I read in the Bible. I am basing it on research I have done, questions I have asked of those who are supposed to know. Things told to me by preachers, priests, and the like. Things I have read in books, or on web sites that are there to explain things in the Bible to you, or explain things about the Bible, or what something says in the Bible means. And again I repeat, I am not, nor have I ever "questioned GOD character". I do not question HIM, I know everything happens for a reason, I know what is meant to be will be if it is in HIS plan for my life. I question man, and things written BY man, I question the accuracy of things said BY man, done BY man and etc... I do not question GOD.

[shernajwine]

I guess I didn't say what I was trying to say very well. I questioned God's character BECAUSE of the bible. I believe the bible is infallible regardless of whether it was written by man. After all God uses flawed men throughout all time to accomplish his purpose and perfect will. He has used me for a purpose and I am completely flawed. God used flawed men to write the bible but that doesn't mean the bible is flawed IMO. But the bible can be used by anyone to justify their behavior, so it is important that when a person reads or uses scripture that they are letting God's holy spirit minister truth.

[dell9031]

I cannot say what Gods punishment is for molesters or murderes or liars and thiefs. Only God has the right to judge them. Their offenses are against Him.  But those that repent, ask God  to lead them out of those temptations...usually don't do it again.  It is a difficult walk. 
Temptation is real, dangerous, and personal.  I am commanded to love, forgive, act justly, show mercy, and walk humbly.  You are responsible for you.  It is in those final moments of death, where its just you, all alone standing before eternities "fork in the road".....one is with God and one is without. But there is only one bridge to God.  But that is my belief and truth for my life and many others.  I cannot speak for others life walk and decisions.  The world is insane.....trying to reason with its "whys" and "hows" is asking the wrong questions.    Stop asking < What happens to those people who do this?> and start asking "What happens to you?".  And then get on with your life with your decision on how and why you live that way.  Justify your life with your actions, not by your arguments.

[soozeeq1]

wow, so I guess that means all those poor souls who lived BEFORE Jesus was born were doomed. Unless reincarnation is real...

[dell9031]

The depth of Gods forgiveness  no one can fathom.  I don't know what His plan was/is for those before.  Perhaps he set aside a place for those who knew of the "one God". They lived under an old contract(Old Testament) with rules and sacrifices for their sins and wrong doing(rule breaking)before Christ came.  But that is what the old testament was all about. Preparing a way for the ultimate sacrifice for all time by Christ.  Getting ready for the One. Ten commandments, all those "rules" were simplifed down to "love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and do unto others as you have others do to you.   No one ever got it right for those old rules before Christ.  If you failed to live up to those rules odds were against you.  Of course God decides who was condemned and it really isn't our concern.  That is between God and them.  But that is no excuse for you to speculate what the Almighty would do with those souls before Christ...thats His business. That "plan" does not apply to you or I after Christ died and rose from the dead.  There is new contract(A New Testament.)in place for us.  But we now know that it is through Christ we are bridged  to God. We are no longer separated from God with all of these rules and I am fully persuaded that he is able to keep the life I have committed to Him for eternity with Him. I am more interested in the resurrection than the reincarnation.

[walksalone11]

C'mon now people.......making it up as you go is what got us all in this mess to start with.

[Falconer02]

^
Epic statement of the day. The last few posts have shown that this is getting a little too odd for me to comment on.

And Darkmistress-- I'm not questioning, bashing, or calling you a fake nor do I want to. From my POV you seem like you have your head on pretty straight. You seem to be more of an agnostic-theist than an adamant christian because you actually see some massive problems and question them.