The thread for those who don't know the trinity.

[shernajwine]

I see now and I fully understand. I still think it's a conflict for any part of the Godhead to have mothers or fathers over them even if it's figurative(Jesus is part of the Godhead).

My next question is can God be exalted or be a prophet if he is already the most high?(Psalms 83:18)

P.S. Jesus is the son of the most high and not the most high himself(Luke 1:32)

Well it's not a conflict to use a metaphor to make a point.

The definition of exalt that applies to God is to glorify and praise and we exalt him because he IS the most high.

And unless you are Jehovah's witness, Jesus IS God so he IS the most high. Jesus is differentiated by being referred to as the SON because of his dual nature, he is God and Man at the same time which is why he is referred to as both the Son of Man and the Son of God through the NT. His human nature (Jesus) had a relationship with his Spirit nature (God). Refer to my link earlier in this thread, if you have not already, in where I am coming from with the Oneness interpretation of the Godhead.

[teflonfanatic]

Theological differences aside I just want to know can you be exalted past the level of most high. Jesus shouldn't have been exalted if he was the most high but instead should have just returned to the glory he once had. I'm also familiar with the oneness teaching even through i'm Arian. 

Let's say Jesus is the greatest carpenter who ever lived(which might be true). Can you be exalted any higher as a carpenter?

P.S. Solomon and angels are sons of God as well(Job 38:7)(1 chronicles 28:6)

[shernajwine]

Theological differences aside I just want to know can you be exalted past the level of most high. Jesus shouldn't have been exalted if he was the most high but instead should have just returned to the glory he once had. I'm also familiar with the oneness teaching even through i'm Arian. 

Let's say Jesus is the greatest carpenter who ever lived(which might be true). Can you be exalted any higher as a carpenter?

P.S. Solomon and angels are sons of God as well(Job 38:7)(1 chronicles 28:6)

I'll state again that the definition of exalt that applies here is to glorify and praise it does not mean to increase in status.

[teflonfanatic]

Theological differences aside I just want to know can you be exalted past the level of most high. Jesus shouldn't have been exalted if he was the most high but instead should have just returned to the glory he once had. I'm also familiar with the oneness teaching even through i'm Arian. 

Let's say Jesus is the greatest carpenter who ever lived(which might be true). Can you be exalted any higher as a carpenter?

P.S. Solomon and angels are sons of God as well(Job 38:7)(1 chronicles 28:6)

I'll state again that the definition of exalt that applies here is to glorify and praise it does not mean to increase in status.

Oh ok I see that makes much more sense if that's what the bible writers intended. I'll understand the context more and more as I read.

Next question is below.

Is it true that trinitarians and modalist view the "angel of the LORD" as Jesus or recognize the angel to be Jesus? Psalms 37:7 is one example.

[jcribb16]

It would take me a long time to be able to answer where you could understand my ramblings. So, I am going to paste something from http://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html regarding who the angel/angels of the Lord is/are:

Question: "Who is the angel of the Lord?"

Answer: The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “the angel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:. In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form.

The appearances of the angel of the Lord cease after the incarnation of Christ. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but “the angel of the Lord” is never mentioned in the New Testament. It is possible that appearances of the angel of the Lord were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation. Jesus declared Himself to be existent “before Abraham” (John 8:58), so it is logical that He would be active and manifest in the world. Whatever the case, whether the angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ (Christophany) or an appearance of God the Father (theophany), it is highly likely that the phrase “the angel of the Lord” usually identifies a physical appearance of God.

Recommended Resource: Angels: Elect & Evil by C. Fred Dickason.


I hope this helps some.

[shernajwine]

Good question teflon and good article Julie, I never even thought about that. I guess when reading scripture you just take some phrases for granted if you're not looking for it 

[teflonfanatic]

It would take me a long time to be able to answer where you could understand my ramblings. So, I am going to paste something from http://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html regarding who the angel/angels of the Lord is/are:

Question: "Who is the angel of the Lord?"

Answer: The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “the angel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:. In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form.

The appearances of the angel of the Lord cease after the incarnation of Christ. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but “the angel of the Lord” is never mentioned in the New Testament. It is possible that appearances of the angel of the Lord were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation. Jesus declared Himself to be existent “before Abraham” (John 8:58), so it is logical that He would be active and manifest in the world. Whatever the case, whether the angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ (Christophany) or an appearance of God the Father (theophany), it is highly likely that the phrase “the angel of the Lord” usually identifies a physical appearance of God.

Recommended Resource: Angels: Elect & Evil by C. Fred Dickason.


I hope this helps some.

For the record if I quote you then you helped  I have mixed feelings about this site, it has decent answers but lies about the Jehovah's witnesses such as saying that "the ransom" is a theory??!!! Have they read Matthew 20:28?

It's true that the phrase "the angel of the LORD" is not mentioned in the New covenant but does the father or the son sending their angels make the angels not the angel of the lord? Since Jesus is now lord naturally any angel sent by Jesus might be an angel of the lord.  Also got questions contradicts itself, got questions says there are references to "the angel of the LORD" in the New testament(I use covenant because some of the old testament still applies or is relevant) yet got questions says there are no mentioning of it in the New testament ?

Christophany is plausible because he was and still is a messenger, angels are messengers so all the scriptures used in this article is just showing God using the angels not God on earth in physical form if that's the case then we will die(Exodus 33:20). I see no contradictions between scripture that on the surface say people "seen" or "walked with God" and Exodus 33:20. The only way for these scriptures to fit together will be for the latter to be personification. Especially since he's invisible to human eyes. It's clear in scripture that angels took on a human form or at least a form recognizable  to humans even though they are invisible. I have yet to see one for God though.

P.S. I believe Jesus is God in position and that he being fully spirit is in the same nature as God and yet not equal to God in being because the angels are also spirits just like God is a spirit(John 4:24)  In short I believe that God is the most high of all spirit creatures and uncreated while the rest are created including Jesus.

I believe the answer to my last question is yes, Trinitarians and modalist believe that the angel of the LORD might have been a christophany. That's probably a theory all sides of Christianity cult or no cult agree on. Jehovah's witnesses who are arians believe this to.

My next question is below...

Does God have a god?

[shernajwine]

Does God have a god?

If God had a god he wouldn't be God.

[jcribb16]

Does God have a god?

If God had a god he wouldn't be God.

This is true.  John 1:1-2 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God."

[teflonfanatic]

Does God have a god?

If God had a god he wouldn't be God.

Oh, Jesus is talking below and he is NOT a human now.

 Revelation 3:12 Reads 12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’

[shernajwine]

Does God have a god?

If God had a god he wouldn't be God.

Oh, Jesus is talking below and he is NOT a human now.

 Revelation 3:12 Reads 12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’

That is a tricky scripture! As you know from the oneness or even trinitarian stand point, when Jesus walked the earth he referred to his Father in a relationship between his human and God nature. Here he is no longer human however he appeared to John as "one like a son of man"

Revelation 1:13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash round his chest.

So, although the scripture doesn't clarify why Jesus appeared in his human (yet glorified) form to John, I would assume it's because that's what John was familiar with and the person of Jesus had to submit to the will of the his Father and thus the confusing possessive noun. I believe he appeared as Jesus and thus spoke as Jesus. That's my take on it.

[teflonfanatic]

Does God have a god?

If God had a god he wouldn't be God.

Oh, Jesus is talking below and he is NOT a human now.

 Revelation 3:12 Reads 12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’

That is a tricky scripture! As you know from the oneness or even trinitarian stand point, when Jesus walked the earth he referred to his Father in a relationship between his human and God nature. Here he is no longer human however he appeared to John as "one like a son of man"

Revelation 1:13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash round his chest.

So, although the scripture doesn't clarify why Jesus appeared in his human (yet glorified) form to John, I would assume it's because that's what John was familiar with and the person of Jesus had to submit to the will of the his Father and thus the confusing possessive noun. I believe he appeared as Jesus and thus spoke as Jesus. That's my take on it.

It's true it's not said however it's clear spirit beings known as angels took on human forms to be recognized by men, such as the angels in post flood earth. Everyone knows that HISTORY. Of course appearing as humans didn't make them half human half God.

My next question is does God(here i'm referring to any member of the "Godhead") have partners?

[shernajwine]

It's true it's not said however it's clear spirit beings known as angels took on human forms to be recognized by men, such as the angels in post flood earth. Everyone knows that HISTORY. Of course appearing as humans didn't make them half human half God.

My next question is does God(here i'm referring to any member of the "Godhead") have partners?

I'm not saying that Jesus was still half human at that time, I'm saying that because he appeared as a son of man that he spoke to John in the same manner he spoke of the Father when he was human. It's not clear WHY he would do so. But with all the other scriptures pertaining to Jesus being God, you can't throw those out for a couple of scriptures that seem confusing. Well I guess you can, because people do. But I'm no bible scholar and I can't fathom to understand the whole bible completely. However, it seems to me that Jesus appearing as he did to John it's not that far fetched for him to say what he did, the way he did.

I assume your next question is based on some scripture that seems to indicate that God does have partners so, what is it?

[teflonfanatic]

It's true it's not said however it's clear spirit beings known as angels took on human forms to be recognized by men, such as the angels in post flood earth. Everyone knows that HISTORY. Of course appearing as humans didn't make them half human half God.

My next question is does God(here i'm referring to any member of the "Godhead") have partners?

I'm not saying that Jesus was still half human at that time, I'm saying that because he appeared as a son of man that he spoke to John in the same manner he spoke of the Father when he was human. It's not clear WHY he would do so. But with all the other scriptures pertaining to Jesus being God, you can't throw those out for a couple of scriptures that seem confusing. Well I guess you can, because people do. But I'm no bible scholar and I can't fathom to understand the whole bible completely. However, it seems to me that Jesus appearing as he did to John it's not that far fetched for him to say what he did, the way he did.

I assume your next question is based on some scripture that seems to indicate that God does have partners so, what is it?

I know all the Jesus being referred as God scriptures, as those scriptures just prove God exalted Jesus to a more superior position(philippians 2:9-11). He is the greater David, Solomon and Moses after all. Not to mention last Adam... The scripture is Hebrews 1:9

[shernajwine]

The scripture is Hebrews 1:9

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The anointed One, the same as the Hebrew Messiah; and he is here said to be 'anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows.'

None was ever constituted prophet, priest, and king, but himself: some were kings only, prophets only, and priests only; others were kings and priests, or priests and prophets, or kings and prophets; but none had ever the three offices in his own person but Jesus Christ; and none but himself can be a King over the universe, a Prophet to all intelligent beings, and a Priest to the whole human race. Thus he is infinitely exalted beyond his fellows - all that had ever borne the regal, prophetic, or sacerdotal offices. http://bible.cc/hebrews/1-9.htm

As for this comment

I know all the Jesus being referred as God scriptures, as those scriptures just prove God exalted Jesus to a more superior position

http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesus.html

That's all I have to say on the subject.