Do you believe in Darwins theory of evlution or do you believe in the bibcal cre

[chadw97]

I believe in Jesus Christ. God the father almighty. Maker of Heaven and earth. I believe in the holy spirit. The holy christian church. The communion of saints. The forgiveness of sins. The ressurection of the body. and the life in heaven everlasting. Amen.

[Falconer02]

This article is perhaps one of the best I've read about the differences between Christians and Atheists.

That was REALLY good! Bookmarked. Excellent find. Thanks!

[mstachitus]

This article is perhaps one of the best I've read about the differences between Christians and Atheists.

That was REALLY good! Bookmarked. Excellent find. Thanks!

I guess we found something to agree on 

[amyrouse]

This article is perhaps one of the best I've read about the differences between Christians and Atheists.

That was REALLY good! Bookmarked. Excellent find. Thanks!

I guess we found something to agree on 

Aha!  The article works!  LOL

[mstachitus]

Aha!  The article works!  LOL

Lol, luckily I don't think we were going at it too bad.  It was more of a discussion than anything else, but thanks for the article.  I ust hope other people read it as well, on both sides of he argument, because really there is a lot of intolerance on this issue.

[U2BMATH]

Reincarnation? I wanna come back as an Italian. I love Italian Food. Is it possible? Sure hope so.

Now on to the bigger question. I privately wrestle with the question of Creation vs Evolution. As a Christian, I'm inclined to side with Creation. But I have my scientific doubts. Here's some of the reasons why.

When I was going to school as a kid, I was taught that ever so slowly, the earth gets closer to the sun. So fractional is this change, that it's almost insignificant, but none the less, I was taught that it happens. Okay, if we take this as factual, wouldn't that mean that at some point in time the earth was farther from the sun? And if this is true, wouldn't that mean that the orbit to get around the sun would take longer? And if that's true, wouldn't that mean the whole concept of a day equaling 24 hours is now thrown out the window? And if that's true, then for me at least, I can no longer believe that Creation is literally done in six, 24-hour days.

Next, I wrestle with this thought. It's my understanding that we do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible. We have copies upon copies upon copies. Translations from one language to the next, and so on. Is it possible that the word DAY in Genesis could have meant PERIODS or AGES, or whatever word could be used to represent such-and-such was created/evolved first over millions/billions of years? And then the next things were done, and then the next, and so on. To me, this is more plausible.

Next, I wrestle with the thought that the Bible doesn't tell us everything. If you think about it, you realize that what the bible tells us is specific to the human race. It tells us of the Fall of Adam/Eve, and how we go from separation from God, to returning to His fellowship through salvation. It talks about the end of the world, etc. What's left out, to me, is what ever happened PRIOR to our existence. If God is eternal, than what happened before He had the notion to create/evolve Earth? Obviously there was activity, because we're told in scripture that Lucifer fell from God's grace. What led him to do that? I don't know that we're ever told this. And I'm not opening a can of worms here, I'm just grabbing a limited example to illustrate that the Bible doesn't tell us everything.

Could life have existed, or currently does exist, on other planets. Planets we have yet to discover. What about life in other galaxies. If it exists, what would God's plan be for it? Do they have a different version of "the Bible" that relates only to them? Don't know, don't think I'm ever meant to know, until death occurs.

But accepting that the Bible is deprived of this kind of information, makes me wonder if in fact there was a previous age of dinosaurs that existed before we ever did. Why not? Is it impossible that God would, and could, create such beings? Genesis' account of creation says that animals were created of all kinds, before we ever graced the planet. And if you question the word "DAY" as being Periods or Ages, then the timing for animals to roam the earth could be far greater than 24 hours.

Bottom Line (for me). I believe in both Creation and Evolution. I believe God created everything. But I do not believe in a 24 hour, six day event. I also believe, as scripture points out, that God is NOT the author of confusion. Evolution makes sense - though we're discovering more and more all the time. Creation takes a leap of faith to believe it. But then again, religion is all about faith, isn't it?

Finally, I believe that we will NEVER know for sure, and that to wonder of such things is really a waste of time. The fact remains, we're here. Who cares where we came from, or how we got here - though I do believe God is responsible. I believe in Satan too. And perhaps this whole battle of Creation vs Evolution is a means for Satan to distract from the real reason we exist, which is to regain fellowship with God. And at this point, I'll jump off my pedestal, because that's an argument not related to the questions being asked in this thread.

[angelhome]

I personally believe in creation by a supreme God. I dont believe man evolved from the sea what do you think? also do you believe in reincarnation?

I agree there is but ONE GOD WHO sent HIS ONLY PERFECT SON - WHO came to earth to teach us how to walk, but also to take our sin on HIMSELF as a LAMB. HE carried it to the Cross and left it in hell and rose from the dead. Seen by many, and they watched as HE asended into Heaven
into Heaven to set at GOD's right Hand as our attorney. But HE lives in HIS WORD and can be found there by all.
So all we need do is come to HIM and give HIM our sin, be covered by HIS Blood and we can be washed whiter than snow.
I grieve for those who do not know HIM for they have no hope.

[ly_fn]

I prefer Darwins theory.

[mstachitus]

And if that's true, then for me at least, I can no longer believe that Creation is literally done in six, 24-hour days.

Where does the Bible state that the earth was created in such a specific spectrum.  It mentions days, but not any other time increment.

Next, I wrestle with this thought. It's my understanding that we do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible. We have copies upon copies upon copies. Translations from one language to the next, and so on. Is it possible that the word DAY in Genesis could have meant PERIODS or AGES, or whatever word could be used to represent such-and-such was created/evolved first over millions/billions of years? And then the next things were done, and then the next, and so on. To me, this is more plausible.

It's possible, I'm sure.  The Bible also states that one day to the Lord is like 1,000 years for us.

we're told in scripture that Lucifer fell from God's grace. What led him to do that? I don't know that we're ever told this.

There are multiple references to this topic in the Bible:  

Isaiah 14:12-15 - Talks about Lucifer falling from heaven; that he was a "son of the morning".
Luke 10:17-18 - Reference made to Satan falling from heaven as lightning.
2 Peter 2:4 - Refers to other "Angels that sinned", who were cast out of heaven.  Apparently, Lucifer was not alone.
Jude 1:6 - "Angels who kept not their first estate".  The first estate is the preexistence of man as spirits.  Lucifer and his followers rebelled and fell from heaven.
Revelation 12:7-12 - The most comprehensive section of scripture on the topic.  I'll quote it directly:

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him ... woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

A belief of the expulsion from heaven of Satan and his followers reaches far back into human history.  Outside of the Bible, it is probably best preserved in the religious literature of Babylonia.  Centuries before Christ's birth, Zoaster there taught his disciples about a pre-mortal separation between a certain good spirit, called Ahura Mazda, and a certain wicked spirit, called Angra Mainyu.  The rest of the spirits chose which of these two chief spirits they would follow, after which the evil spirits, called Daeva, were expelled.

Lucifer, the previous name of Satan, or the Devil, literally means "Bringing Light", and has reference to Venus, the "Morning Star".  This shows that Lucifer held great status in heaven before his alleged fall with his angels.

Bottom Line (for me). I believe in both Creation and Evolution.

Seems like a logical conclusion.  I also believe in elements of both.

Finally, I believe that we will NEVER know for sure, and that to wonder of such things is really a waste of time. The fact remains, we're here. Who cares where we came from, or how we got here - though I do believe God is responsible. I believe in Satan too. And perhaps this whole battle of Creation vs Evolution is a means for Satan to distract from the real reason we exist, which is to regain fellowship with God. And at this point, I'll jump off my pedestal, because that's an argument not related to the questions being asked in this thread.

I think it is perfectly fine to speculate about these types of things.  It is our existence, after all.  What could be more important for us to speculate about?  I'm sure Satan does use this topic to distract us from our real goal here on earth, as you say, but only if we let that happen.

[U2BMATH]

Let me say thanks for taking time to read my former lengthy reply.

Where does the Bible state that the earth was created in such a specific spectrum.  It mentions days, but not any other time increment: Don't know. But you talk to any Fundamentalist Baptist Preacher, and he's gonna tell ya that their belief in creation is six 24-hour days. No if, ands, or buts about it. What they base that on, I have no idea. But that's where I derived my thought from.

we're told in scripture that Lucifer fell from God's grace. What led him to do that? I don't know that we're ever told this: Great references provided here. Still, they just present the "tip of the iceberg", for me at least. Eternity is a long time, and I bet books upon books upon books could be written, not by man - but by God himself, about what happened prior to creation/evolution ever happening about "The Life Of God & Satan", hehe. And I'm also confident we'll never know the whole story until we die.

Here's a looming question in my own mind. If God formulated a plan to redeem man, why didn't he choose to formulate a plan for Satan, and the angels that fell with him? If Satan miraculously confessed of his evil ways, would he then be allowed salvation? I know scripture depicts the end of Satan and hell, and from that information there's no way this could happen. But it begs the question: "What if....?" Oh, here I go...exactly where this thread didn't intend for us to boldly go, hehe.

[mstachitus]

Where does the Bible state that the earth was created in such a specific spectrum.  It mentions days, but not any other time increment: Don't know. But you talk to any Fundamentalist Baptist Preacher, and he's gonna tell ya that their belief in creation is six 24-hour days. No if, ands, or buts about it. What they base that on, I have no idea. But that's where I derived my thought from.

Al scripture is laced incessantly with metaphor upon metaphor.  Christ himself taught metaphorically in what we call "Parables".  If we think of the audience that Moses was writing to when he wrote the original 5 books in our Old Testament, we think of the ancient Israelites.  They were "stiff-necked", and "slow to remember the Lord their God".  They were a real handful for Moses to deal with at times.  They preferred mystery and darkness to light and truth, hence the Law of Moses.  The Old Law was so ridden with metaphors, mystery, and types of things to come hidden in daily, arduous tasks; that much of our scriptures are extremely difficult to interpret correctly, much less take 100% literally.

That in mind, if God so shrouded Israels law in metaphor, reason would tell us that much of our story of the creation, of Adam and Eve, etc., is also metaphoric.  Was there a literal forbidden fruit?  Was Satan literally a serpent in disguise?  Was the earth literally created in 6 short days (24 hour days)?

In short, I don't know.  But reason tells me that there is a good chance that much of this is not to be taken literally.

we're told in scripture that Lucifer fell from God's grace. What led him to do that? I don't know that we're ever told this: Great references provided here. Still, they just present the "tip of the iceberg", for me at least. Eternity is a long time, and I bet books upon books upon books could be written, not by man - but by God himself, about what happened prior to creation/evolution ever happening about "The Life Of God & Satan", hehe. And I'm also confident we'll never know the whole story until we die.

Well, I could tell you more on the subject, particularly what my church teaches about it, but much of it is not found in the Bible, therefore I hesitate to post other sources for fear of harassment    People are pretty attached to the Bible, and are not generally inclined to accept outside sources.

True, though, that we can never know everything in this lifetime.  Truth, as it were, is eternal.  Therefore, the doctrines of salvation are never ending, and cannot be contained in 1 book.  It was said of Christ that the entire world could not contain the books if we were to write of all his dealings from his mortal ministry among men.

Here's a looming question in my own mind. If God formulated a plan to redeem man, why didn't he choose to formulate a plan for Satan, and the angels that fell with him? If Satan miraculously confessed of his evil ways, would he then be allowed salvation? I know scripture depicts the end of Satan and hell, and from that information there's no way this could happen. But it begs the question: "What if....?" Oh, here I go...exactly where this thread didn't intend for us to boldly go, hehe.

Lucifer was incorporated in God's plan of salvation.  He was the "Son of the Morning", the "Bringer of Light".  He was a noble and great spirit, a son of God in every sense that you and I am.  He rebelled, and fell from heaven.  He sought power and authority, and deceived a great host of spirits who became his angels.  He knew full well what he was doing, and so did his followers.  We don't know exactly what happen, but a there was a "war in heaven", as the scriptures state.  I don't think there is much repentance in his heart.  He is still fighting, and we ask why.  Why would he continue if his own future is so bleak?  It's because he wants to make all men miserable like unto himself.  Every time we choose to follow him, he wins a small battle.  He's going down, but he'll take every soul he can with him.

[cubarican210]

Check this out. I think many of you would find it interesting.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

[mstachitus]

Check this out. I think many of you would find it interesting.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

Thanks for that.

Einstein: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."  - It's funny if you think of 'lame' in its modern day connotation, rather than its original one.  But that is exactly what I believe.  Thanks Einstein!

[jordandog]

Check this out. I think many of you would find it interesting.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

Thanks for that.

Einstein: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."  - It's funny if you think of 'lame' in its modern day connotation, rather than its original one.  But that is exactly what I believe.  Thanks Einstein!

I have seen this quote used so many times in such a way as to imply Einstein was religious and it is always taken out of context. To know what he was actually saying, you need to read more about it. Here is something on the letter from which the quote was taken. If you read it, I think you will see it is NOT really 'fuel' for making the argument most people put it across as. *The portions underlined were done so by me because they are things that support why I said what I did. Below is from Softpedia, but the same thing can be found in MANY other places:

This is what Albert Einstein wrote in his letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, in response to his receiving the book "Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt". The letter was written on January 3, 1954, in German, and explains Einstein's personal beliefs regarding religion and the Jewish people; it was put on sale one year later and remained into a personal collection ever since. Now the letter is again on auction in London and has a starting price of 8,000 sterling pounds.

The letter states pretty clearly that Einstein was by no means a religious person - in fact, the great physicist saw religion as no more than a "childish superstition". "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this", Einstein wrote.


Einstein was Jewish, which is why the people of Israel asked him once to become Israel's second president. Also, Einstein felt uncomfortable with the idea that the Jews are God's favored People.

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise, I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them", said Einstein.

Although, neither Einstein nor his parents were religious people, he did in fact attend the Catholic primary school. But at the age of 12 he was already questioning the truth of the stories written in the Bible. "The consequence was a positively fanatic orgy of freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression", Einstein wrote.

Einstein may have not believed in God, but he felt that faith was a must. This is probably why he never gave a second thought to studying the quantum theory and its random nature. He once said that "God does not throw dice", meaning that quantum theory randomness is out of the question for him. This belief in faith is probably also why his position towards religion was often misinterpreted.

"Like other great scientists he does not fit the boxes in which popular polemicists like to pigeonhole him. It is clear for example that he had respect for the religious values enshrined within Judaic and Christian traditions... but what he understood by religion was something far more subtle than what is usually meant by the word in popular discussion", said John Brook from the Oxford University, leading expert on Albert Einstein.

Einstein was often associated with atheism because of his views on conventional religion, but he never liked being called an atheist.

I am not trying to argue or burst anyone's 'belief bubble', simply clarifying something that is far too often used when discussions of science and religion come up. I have had plenty of believers use 'Einstein's religion' on me and I tell them they need to look a little further in order to know what he really believed. 

[marieelissa]

I believe both, I believe God included evolution in his creations for reasons we already know...to adapt, change and survive.