I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[queenofnines]

Jesus says that, "...if you have faith as a GRAIN of mustard seed..."  That is enough to show us how hard it is for many people to just have faith to first trust in Him, not to mention asking for big things.

*Scratches head*  You are claiming that having faith the size of a mustard seed is hard?  You are also claiming by default that the millions (if not billions) of people who have prayed for a cure for cancer or similar, not one of them had genuine faith?  Please.

What the quote is in reality, courtesy of my hubby: You can have faith the size of a mountain, but you won't be able to move a mustard seed.

 I feel like you did nothing but skim the genius piece on prayer, because it addressed everything you are saying here.

Another thing I would like to add is that God answers in different aspects for His own reasons that either we may never know or we may know when we meet Him in eternity:  
1. He answers yes.
2. He answers no.
3. He answers "later" or "not at this time."

No disrespect, but you can get the same results from praying to a jug of milk.  

http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3#p/c/A0C3C1D163BE880A/3/hf5q6VFn17o (starting at 6:08)

[Falconer02]

I don't believe anything unless there's some decent amount of evidence for it. The Big Bang has a lot of evidence. I can see the results with my own eyes- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WMAP_2010.png so the probability of it actually happening way back then is very high. Sure there's a few problems and, because I wasn't there, I cannot 100% guarentee it. But with the amazing and overwhelming evidence we have, I see no reason not to.

My nihilist idea and alien idea are just speculations. It's on the same level as any idea for a god. Anything I come up with is just a legitimate as the previous speculation.

[jcribb16]

queenofnines,

You are the one missing the point, skimming the surface, as you say.  As many people who are dying from, say, cancer, *there are just as many who overcome the cancer. Some prayed for those miracles, others didn't.  

I want to clarify to you that Jesus, Himself, uses the mustard seed faith, not me.  I was sharing how He uses it and how the quantity of faith parallels the size of the mustard seed.  You don't have to believe it since you don't believe in God or His Word, since that's where the mustard seed scenario comes from.  A person who refutes God the way you do is not open to wanting to understand that kind of faith.

* I would like to add here that I don't have statistics for this. I know what I've heard from both Christians and non-Christians alike.  I am speaking of family and/or relatives and friends who have had cancer and overcame it, those who have, unfortunately died from it, and those who have gotten it 2 or 3 times and still overcame it. Whatever the outcome, those people struggled and struggle today, whether we pray or not. Whatever happens is God's will and His business of what He's trying to accomplish and I hope one day to understand why things happened the way they did and how it affected decisions and events down the road.

[jcribb16]

I don't believe anything unless there's some decent amount of evidence for it. The Big Bang has a lot of evidence. I can see the results with my own eyes- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WMAP_2010.png so the probability of it actually happening way back then is very high. Sure there's a few problems and, because I wasn't there, I cannot 100% guarentee it. But with the amazing and overwhelming evidence we have, I see no reason not to.

My nihilist idea and alien idea are just speculations. It's on the same level as any idea for a god. Anything I come up with is just a legitimate as the previous speculation.

Then so is God's creation, as a speculation, as well.  I will continue later.  I have to meet my daughter-in-law half way from where we both live, to drop off our granddaughters, who spent the weekend with us.

[Falconer02]

Then so is God's creation, as a speculation, as well.  I will continue later.  I have to meet my daughter-in-law half way from where we both live, to drop off our granddaughters, who spent the weekend with us.

Ah cool. Alright! Have a good time.

But to continue this- just remember that speculation is not based on evidence or proof. It's just consideration of any idea presented. Example being if aliens came down to earth, would they be allergic to our water? That's a speculative question that could result in a debate. There's no proof for aliens and, because of that, there's no proof of the allergy. It's quite a stretch.

[jcribb16]

Then so is God's creation, as a speculation, as well.  I will continue later.  I have to meet my daughter-in-law half way from where we both live, to drop off our granddaughters, who spent the weekend with us.

Ah cool. Alright! Have a good time.

But to continue this- just remember that speculation is not based on evidence or proof. It's just consideration of any idea presented. Example being if aliens came down to earth, would they be allergic to our water? That's a speculative question that could result in a debate. There's no proof for aliens and, because of that, there's no proof of the allergy. It's quite a stretch.

I am trying to work my way into showing you how God's creation is based on evidence or proof, through Intelligent Design.  The Big Bang Theory is a man-made conclusion. So you are saying you back the idea that the universe, including time and space, just ''banged'' and ''poof''; and that this perfect universe with sky, ground, stars, waters, etc., appeared out of nowhere?  And then people evolved from what: animals, flowers etc.?  Do you know how odd that sounds?  But yet, you can't entertain the idea that this perfect being was, is, and will be, actually created the universe, with no constrainsts of time and space; created people from the dust of the ground; that these people can speak or hear, or talk, or feel,,,,

Will continue .....

[jcribb16]

continued...

For anything to have a design, there has to be a designer.  Examples include architect's plans, art, forensics, motors, archaeology, the "brain" of a computer, etc.  Chance (a Big Bang) can explain complexity alone but not specification.   Specification would have to have a designer to make these specifics. A great example of this would be a study of bacterial cells (for this example I am going to use a quote by a molecular biologist), (I am writing this next statement in bold because of how important this is to proving a creator being (God.):   
 
        Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." (Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1986, p. 250.)

Information definitely requires intelligence.  Also, design requires a designer.  That is not representative of the "Big Bang" theory.  But it does support creation by a creator (God.)

Another thing to look at is how the universe is ordered by natural laws. Where did these laws come from and what purpose do they serve?  I sure don't see how a "Big Bang" theory can just automatically have these laws imbedded in its "poof, universe and people are made" scenario. Those laws had to be designed by a designer.

Another question.  Who gave us our conscience?  Just knowing how our brain is put together and works like it does could not have happened without a designer and without intelligence.

[Falconer02]

The Big Bang Theory is a man-made conclusion. So you are saying you back the idea that the universe, including time and space, just ''banged'' and ''poof''; and that this perfect universe with sky, ground, stars, waters, etc., appeared out of nowhere?

First off- the Big Bang has been proven. It has met all the requirements and challenges of being a real past event. If you're curious as to know what the proof is, this video explains it brilliantly-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PqJ2eEzD3o

The word 'perfect' is used extremely loosely here. This universe is pretty chaotic and violent if you look into it. We are but one species on a grain of sand within a seemingly infinite beach. Do I back the idea of existence poofing out of no where? No. But this is speculation; I don't really back any of the speculative ideas I could plop on the table because there's a lack of evidence for any of them. If I were to, it would just be due to emotion. Like I've stated before- I'm in no position to assert any assumptions.

And then people evolved from what: animals, flowers etc.?  Do you know how odd that sounds?

Not odd at all considering the ancient and mythological story alternatives. We came from more primitive forms of life and there is very strong evidence to support that. Life grows and attempts to better itself. Micro and macroevolution have been proven. But of course the further we get back, it gets harder to find complete evidence of things on this world. I'm pretty sure you can figure out a few reasons why. Abiogenesis, as far as I know, offers a very interesting explanation with some evidence but it still has some big holes in it. Does that mean we should just toss it out the window? No. As we discover more evidence, we add it to the collection, experiment with it, and see how it fits. Of course you're going to run into problems along the way. Problems like these are good in science. It's solving mysteries, and I support that.

For anything to have a design, there has to be a designer.  Examples include architect's plans, art, forensics, motors, archaeology, the "brain" of a computer, etc.

Cheap watchmaker analogy. It ain't workin' here. This author should get in touch with natural selection (the thing we can see with our eyes) and stop pulling the god card left and right. Life starts in a basic form and becomes more complex.

I sure don't see how a "Big Bang" theory can just automatically have these laws imbedded in its "poof, universe and people are made" scenario. Those laws had to be designed by a designer.

Waitwaitwait..."poof, universe and people are made"? I'd say the bible fits this description with the whole *poof* thing considering it's just 6 days for everything to pop into existence. Us nonbelievers think it's billions upon billions of years.

Who gave us our conscience?  Just knowing how our brain is put together and works like it does could not have happened without a designer and without intelligence.

Our conscience is one of the major reasons we've made it so far. Evolution created it slowly, over thousands of years, and I enjoy how far it's come. We evolved with heightened intelligence to our species name and fortunately that was a good trait to keep passing on and teaching (face it- we're no tiger or bear. Brains b4 braun). You'll see the same traits in a lot of mammals. It told us to stick together, and as it did this, we developed morals and ethics to guide ourselves by. And even today we still don't know everything about the brain, so fortunately there's still a lot to learn why we do the things we do.

[amyrouse]

I wanted to post this link, because I think it might add another dimension to this discussion: 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11711228

I have to say, I like the turn the discussion has taken.  I absolutely love how this discussion, while heated, has remained civil for the last couple of pages.  Keep it up, Jcribb and Falconer!

[jcribb16]

Quote from jcribb:
The Big Bang Theory is a man-made conclusion. So you are saying you back the idea that the universe, including time and space, just ''banged'' and ''poof''; and that this perfect universe with sky, ground, stars, waters, etc., appeared out of nowhere?

Quote from Falconer:
First off- the Big Bang has been proven. It has met all the requirements and challenges of being a real past event. If you're curious as to know what the proof is, this video explains it brilliantly-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PqJ2eEzD3o



Regarding the Big Bang Theory:

1.  To question you from above, then how do the scientists explain the uneven distribution of original matter that results in "voids" and "clumps?"    
     **I have not gotten any clear answer on this.

2.  Why don't the scientists address these questions:  Where did everything come from?;   Did anything explode into bits?;  How did this explosion cause order, while every other explosion observed in actual history causes only disorder and disarray?          
     **I honestly don't see any evidence or proof of order in your scenario.  However, God, the Intelligent Designer, caused order, when He created the world one day at a time.

3.  It has been said that the Big Bang violates two out of three Laws of Thermodynamics.  
     A.  I don't understand some of this but I know it has to do with retrograde motion that disagrees with the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum.   ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_motion);           (http://www.suite101.com/content/law-of-angular-momentum-conservation-in-physics-a180161)

     B. Macroevolution is ( "used to refer to any evolutionary change at or above the level of species.") ("It means at least the splitting of a species into two (speciation, or cladogenesis, from the Greek meaning "the origin of a branch", see Fig. 1) or the change of a species over time into another (anagenetic speciation, not nowadays generally accepted). Any changes that occur at higher levels, such as the evolution of new families, phyla or genera, are also therefore macroevolution, but the term is not restricted to those higher levels. It often also means long-term trends or biases in evolution of higher taxonomic levels.")  This quote is courtesy of: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html#what

   **Macroevolution has been proved false by the lack of transitional fossils in the fossil record.  

   **Why is genetic mutation so dangerous, if the Bang and evolution seemed to happen and evolve so easily?  I still haven't heard or seen a favorable mutation take place.  
  

[Falconer02]

To question you from above, then how do the scientists explain the uneven distribution of original matter that results in "voids" and "clumps?"    

Are you expecting completely symmetrical and 'humanly-orderly' results from an explosion? Surely you'll get your basic expectations from any explosion (a burst of energy from a source, expansion, maybe a crater afterwards, etc.), but there will be a lot of chaos happening within the matter that's practically unpredictable.

Why don't the scientists address these questions:  Where did everything come from?;   Did anything explode into bits?;  How did this explosion cause order, while every other explosion observed in actual history causes only disorder and disarray?

1.) They don't know where every little thing came from. That's the point of science-- to find out.
2.) I'm not sure what you mean.
3.) Humans are just used to explosions being disorderly due to war footage and the like. Like I explained above, explosions are orderly in their own way.  You have a small amount of energy expanding rapidly. You can expect the energy to extend away from its original point, but predicting where the energy will go is very difficult because you have energies repelling and merging with eachother. 1 particle effects the other, and then those 2 effect 5, and those 5 effect 16...etc. etc. Ultimately the ends justify the means in this case though-- us. I imagine this will eventually extend to the whole common "we came from stardust" tag that we have all talked about in other threads.

It has been said that the Big Bang violates two out of three Laws of Thermodynamics.

As far as I know, it does not. You can only go so far with me on this though. I'm not some theoretical physicist here. But I will say that the Big Bang model does have some random problems in which the whole scientific community has trouble underlining. Nothing is perfect.

Macroevolution has been proved false by the lack of transitional fossils in the fossil record

Well that's a pretty blind statement. That's like saying
"There are no cookies in this house, but I only found 3."
"Did you look everywhere?"
"No, but I'm sure there's still no cookies in this house so we should stop looking."

Macroevolution is true because there are transitional fossils. Technically every fossil is transitional. The ones that fill the gaps in the fossil record are just very rare unfortunately.  

Why is genetic mutation so dangerous, if the Bang and evolution seemed to happen and evolve so easily?

There is nothing easy with any of the terms used here. Life's a *bleep*! I'm just content with how well off I am right now considering a lot of the junk going on in the world. I get to argue with people from across the country via keyboard. Neato.

I still haven't heard or seen a favorable mutation take place.

Sickle-cell anemia WAS a favorable mutation up until our life-expectancy skyrocketed from 20-25 yrs to 80+. Malaria is a deadly,horrible, and extremely rampant disease. Especially in Africa. Many people get it-- especially in more tribal areas. Malaria has difficulty killing certain people off due to the (sickle-cell) mutation in their blood that gives them an exponentially stronger resistance to malaria. They live on and most of the other malaria-infected die off. Therefore it ensures that people with this genetic trait live on and breed. Now, due to our amazing medical technologies, Sickle-cell is more of an enemy because it kills its carrier off at around the age of 45.

I absolutely love how this discussion, while heated, has remained civil for the last couple of pages.  Keep it up, Jcribb and Falconer!

OMG *bleep* OR GET OUT ZOMG LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

...I mean...Thanks!!!

[scarroll452]

Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.

How are you going to find out? Will you read the Bible or what is your plan? I once heard of a person that was an atheist, he too was interested in finding out if God existed.  After he read and studied the Bible for a full year; he came to the conclusion that God did exist.

[amyrouse]

I absolutely love how this discussion, while heated, has remained civil for the last couple of pages.  Keep it up, Jcribb and Falconer!

OMG *bleep* OR GET OUT ZOMG LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

...I mean...Thanks!!!

Someone has been trolling 4chan too much, methinks. 

[jordandog]

When all answers and questions come from creationist websites, there will never be a 'favorable' answer given as to how things actually came into being. Is anyone on here, myself included, a nuclear physicist able to explain theories of redshift, collisional bonding of molecules, gravitational clustering that produces mass as a result of an explosion, etc. in such a way to be understood and thus a refute to creation and proof of evolution? No, plain and simple. Each side states it's opinions, as it has been done for many years and the sides look at each other and say.... I will say it has been a very civil and adult convo though, good on ya, and keep it going!

Sorry so late on this, haven't caught up until now, but love you too Falconer, hi "Sister in Warped Thinking" Amy, and hello Sheryl (saw that in some thread)!

I edited to remove the link/pic that changed itself. Maybe it was a hint - 

[jcribb16]

When all answers and questions come from creationist websites, there will never be a 'favorable' answer given as to how things actually came into being. Is anyone on here, myself included, a nuclear physicist able to explain theories of redshift, collisional bonding of molecules, gravitational clustering that produces mass as a result of an explosion, etc. in such a way to be understood and thus a refute to creation and proof of evolution? No, plain and simple. Each side states it's opinions, as it has been done for many years and the sides look at each other and say.... I will say it has been a very civil and adult convo though, good on ya, and keep it going!

Sorry so late on this, haven't caught up until now, but love you too Falconer, hi "Sister in Warped Thinking" Amy, and hello Sheryl (saw that in some thread)!

So, then, Creation is just as much a possibility as Big Bang, etc.  I choose Creation.