I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[Annella]

Sorry I had to go Jcribb.  Getting someone through unexpected life happenings.

Some have really "put it out there" and met with the same scorn as always.  To God be all the Glory, because it's His anyway.....in ALL things.  Whoever it was that told of her backsliding and getting back to God, that was a beautiful testimony!  May God keep you and bless you.  You can rest assured that God gave you the victory.

While I understand that there are answers that some seek on here, others are just wanting an argument.  It's the same questions over and over again, and the same answers over and over again.  There's no goal to this debate, discussion, argument, etc.  There's nothing new being discussed.  However, time will prove all things......everything.

I came in here to help a sister, but she is strong.  I will leave as I came.


  
  

[angelhome]

Falconer, I will continue researching my answers to rebutt your remarks.  I am just amazed how you will even disagree with professionals on this issue.  I do not appreciate you telling me that I probably know nothing about what I responded to you with. You are absolutely wrong with that.  One more thing, I will go further if I choose.  If you don't want to continue this discussion about ID because you think there is not further proof, then that is your decision. I will not be cut off because you say so.  It sounds as if the deeper we get into this, the more concerned you are that there will be evidence that you can't say you disagree with.  I will return.....

I hope your research involves the Bible? that is the only Book that lives and issues life, power, security, & eternal life... but it does not issue by law - Only by HIS Spirit... The wise still seek HIM.

[queenofnines]

I've known people to ask God for confirmation about one thing or the other.  Not tell anyone, just in their heart, and God answered them.  Something that needs divine intervention or it won't get fixed. Not something for gain like "If you give me X amount of dollars by such and such of date".......you won't see squat because you asked incorrectly.

Uh, they obviously told you...right?  lol

"What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:

Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.

We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.

Will anything happen? No. Of course not.

This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and God will answer your prayers. And Christians believe Jesus -- according to this recent article, "54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true." In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%.

If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

If "nothing will be impossible to you", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying.

In Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

If "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should dissappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."

The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

If God says, "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying.

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:

"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Look at how direct this statement is: "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." This is the "Son of God" speaking. Have we taken him "too literally?" No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement "out of context?" No - Jesus uses the word anyone. Yet Jesus' statement is obviously false. Because when we ask God to cure cancer tonight, nothing happens.

We see the same thing over and over again...

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

In Mark 9:23:
All things are possible to him who believes.

In Luke 1:37:
For with God nothing will be impossible.

Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible. Yet, when we pray to eliminate cancer, nothing happens.

And keep in mind that this is Jesus talking here. These are not the words of human beings. These are not the words of "inspired" human beings. These are supposedly the words of God himself, incarnated in a human body. Jesus is supposed to be a perfect, sinless being. And yet, it is obvious that Jesus is lying. What Jesus says is clearly incorrect.

Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect.

When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth.

Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer,
he is clearly lying.

If you would like additional proof, gather a million faithful believers together into a giant prayer circle. Have them all pray together in Jesus' name that God cures every case of cancer on the planet tomorrow. Pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Now, we certainly have two or more people gathered together, and they have asked in Jesus' name, and we have not one but a million faithful believers who, by definition, have faith and believe. We have fulfilled every one of Jesus' requirements.

Will Jesus answer the prayer now? Of course not. Your prayer will go unanswered, in direct defiance to Jesus' promises in the Bible. In fact, if you pray for anything that is impossible, your prayer will always go unanswered."

Source: http://www.godisimaginary.com/i1.htm

[queenofnines]

No....you think.....qon.  You'r not a hypocrite.  You'r the Atheist in the bunch that use to be a Christian.  I'd call that a turncoat....a Judas.  Too harsh, or true?  Quit putting down new people because they have something to say...Your are the most abrasive miserable person I've ever known to post on a forum.

What's with this "You'r"?  lol 

Are ex Nazis hypocrites?  Ex alcoholics?  Ex anything that was bad and wrong, but the person recovered from it?  And calling me Judas is the equivalent of me calling you the Tooth Fairy.

I'm not putting down "new people" because they have something to say.  It makes no difference to me the number of posts someone has under their belt.  If they present an argument that is the equivalent of a 6 year old trying to prove the existence of their invisible friend, they're going to get called on it.

You sure are one to talk when accusing me of being "miserable and abrasive".  It is you who has made the enemies recently, not me.  I don't have to go around badmouthing you like you do to me for people to see who you really are.  You've created this role for yourself where you scold everyone who disagrees with you.

Just one recent example of the Attack of Annella, to JessieKateRose in http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=23383.msg302046#msg302046 :

"Uh, if the above is an "ESSAY", then essays have certainly changed since I've been back to school.  However....news flash, this is a public forum where things are posted.  I don't know what you think you are gaining by this hissy fit your throwing, but you have (in this thread) accused me of deleting my posts, when in actuality I only deleted one, because I made a mistake posting to another person in error and was correcting it. You come in every 10 or so posts to flame me to someone I'm talking to or to say something negative about me, and I have no idea why. Get over yourself and move on.  You are acting immature.  Now, get rid of the resentment over whatever you thought I did.  Grow up.
...Really, let it drop or grow up, preferably both."

Hmm, I'm seeing a lot of sarcasm, miserableness, abrasiveness, and bitchiness here.  The exact same things you accuse anyone who challenges you of.  Except for the *bleep* part, becos thats a bad werd yew guuyys!  And Annella doesn't say bad werds!

[queenofnines]

Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.

Hmm, really?  Then why are there thousands of different religions and ideas of god?

And "irreducible complexity" is a myth.  The parts of the human eye, for example, don't all have to be there in the beginning to have a crude version of sight.

@amyrouse: Thanks for the support!  Yes my style is blunt and passionate, but I'm truly not trying to hurt anyone like Annella thinks I am.  Think of it more as trying to shake sense into people.

@Falconer: I want to quote so many of the things you say and reinforce how awesome they are, but I don't want to look like I'm kissing *bleep*.  It's always really annoying to see others quote a whole wall of text and only add a thumbs up emote, like they're showing support simply because that person is from the same camp as them.  Just know I am turning over my unused worship abilities and directing them at your posts!

[jcribb16]

Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?

On a human scale? Being a compatibilist with this philosophical question, "both" is my answer. 

Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?

Wut.

Do you really think this is a simple agree/disagree question? Remember, I'm agnostic. Being only human, you and I are not in a position to answer this question. I'm not here to assert anything. It's not that I don't want to answer your question here-- I wish I could. I just can't because I don't know.

Now you are doing what you say we, as Christians, are doing - not giving a direct answer.  Do you think the universe just happened for no reason whatsoever, or that there was a reason?  I can't go further until you give me your yes or no answer.  I'm trying to build up to prove where ID and God are there.

[queenofnines]

** Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?

** Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?

Q1. Your question is flawed because you DON'T agree with it!  You guys believe god has just always existed and has no cause, which is breaking your own rules.  You have zero proof for this, you just assert it.

Ignoring the major flaw of your question, yes there was a cause for this current universe.  That cause was the Big Bang.  This has been proven and even recently replicated.  What came before the Big Bang is not yet know.  But even when we do find out, there will be no pleasing you people because then you will just want to know what came before that.  

Again I ask, how does a magic god trump card solve ANYTHING when it comes to this question?  You're content believing that god could have always existed without knowing how, but not content with the much more likely option that it was the elements necessary for universes that have always existed?  Say whaaaaaat?

Q2. This *current* universe began to exist, yes.  And we already know that it will one day die.  It's quite possible that universes have been collapsing and being born on end, and this is the one that we happen to be in.  It's also possible that there were no universes before this one.  That does not say by any means that a god kicked it off, though.

[Falconer02]

@Falconer: I want to quote so many of the things you say and reinforce how awesome they are, but I don't want to look like I'm kissing *bleep*.  It's always really annoying to see others quote a whole wall of text and only add a thumbs up emote, like they're showing support simply because that person is from the same camp as them.  Just know I am turning over my unused worship abilities and directing them at your posts!

 

OH! I mean-- Very cool. And yeah, though I do it very occasionally for more trivial threads, I do find it cheap to do the same thing. One should explain why they feel the same way.

Now you are doing what you say we, as Christians, are doing - not giving a direct answer.

I gave you a direct  answer for 1. #1 was directed at causality, so the only direct answer with what I believe is 'both'. This isn't a black or white question.

Do you think the universe just happened for no reason whatsoever, or that there was a reason?  I can't go further until you give me your yes or no answer.  I'm trying to build up to prove where ID and God are there.

Ah okay. I must have not really been thinking about it too hard at 2:30 AM. But yes, this universe began to exist in the way we conceptualize existence. Was there a reason? What came before it? I don't know.

[jcribb16]

Quote from queenofnines:
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Notice He said "...if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed..." 

First, the mustard seed is extremely small to begin with.  Then Jesus says that, "...if you have faith as a GRAIN of mustard seed..."  That is enough to show us how hard it is for many people to just have faith to first trust in Him, not to mention asking for big things.  The mustard plant then grows to a remarkable size in comparison to the original mustard seed. This represents Christians then growing in their faith to be able to do remarkable things of the Lord. [Mark 4:30-32, Luke 13:18-20].

This, in turn, leads to the AMOUNT of faith it takes to ask Jesus to do what we consider the impossible.  This is considered to be PURE faith, meaning absolutely NO doubt or disbelief that it will happen when you ask Jesus, hence, the mustard seed.  It is usually the doubt or disbelief that gives us the failure of faith, not the faith itself.  [Luke 17:5-6; Mark 11:23; Matthew 21:21, Matthew 17:20.]  To combat this, you have to increase your time of praying with God.  You have to completely focus on the issue at hand, shedding the worldly influence and totally depend on God.  An example of this would be when Peter walked on the water to Jesus.  As long as he kept his eyes on Jesus (straight ahead and focused,) he was able to do just that.  As soon as he looked down and actually saw what he was doing, he lost contact with Jesus and started sinking.

You also need to surround yourself with like believers of faith in Jesus.  Scoffers are part of the wordly influence and are not helping the situation by scoffing and interrupting what you are trying to ask.  This is what the devil likes and encourages.  He's the stumbling block that causes us to go on the defense, so to speak, instead of being on the offense. 

Another thing I would like to add is that God answers in different aspects for His own reasons that either we may never know or we may know when we meet Him in eternity: 
1. He answers yes.
2. He answers no.
3. He answers "later" or "not at this time."

[jcribb16]

Sorry I had to go Jcribb.  Getting someone through unexpected life happenings.

Some have really "put it out there" and met with the same scorn as always.  To God be all the Glory, because it's His anyway.....in ALL things.  Whoever it was that told of her backsliding and getting back to God, that was a beautiful testimony!  May God keep you and bless you.  You can rest assured that God gave you the victory.

While I understand that there are answers that some seek on here, others are just wanting an argument.  It's the same questions over and over again, and the same answers over and over again.  There's no goal to this debate, discussion, argument, etc.  There's nothing new being discussed.  However, time will prove all things......everything.

I came in here to help a sister, but she is strong.  I will leave as I came.

I agree.  Hey, you don't have to leave!!!  Your comments and reflections are very important in here!     


  
  

[jcribb16]

Falconer, I will continue researching my answers to rebutt your remarks.  I am just amazed how you will even disagree with professionals on this issue.  I do not appreciate you telling me that I probably know nothing about what I responded to you with. You are absolutely wrong with that.  One more thing, I will go further if I choose.  If you don't want to continue this discussion about ID because you think there is not further proof, then that is your decision. I will not be cut off because you say so.  It sounds as if the deeper we get into this, the more concerned you are that there will be evidence that you can't say you disagree with.  I will return.....

I hope your research involves the Bible? that is the only Book that lives and issues life, power, security, & eternal life... but it does not issue by law - Only by HIS Spirit... The wise still seek HIM.

Yes, that is the only and best there is!! 

[jcribb16]

** Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?

** Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?

Q1. Your question is flawed because you DON'T agree with it!  You guys believe god has just always existed and has no cause, which is breaking your own rules.  You have zero proof for this, you just assert it.

Ignoring the major flaw of your question, yes there was a cause for this current universe.  That cause was the Big Bang.  This has been proven and even recently replicated.  What came before the Big Bang is not yet know.  But even when we do find out, there will be no pleasing you people because then you will just want to know what came before that.  

Again I ask, how does a magic god trump card solve ANYTHING when it comes to this question?  You're content believing that god could have always existed without knowing how, but not content with the much more likely option that it was the elements necessary for universes that have always existed?  Say whaaaaaat?

Q2. This *current* universe began to exist, yes.  And we already know that it will one day die.  It's quite possible that universes have been collapsing and being born on end, and this is the one that we happen to be in.  It's also possible that there were no universes before this one.  That does not say by any means that a god kicked it off, though.

queenofnines:
Please stop answering my questions for me.  My questions are NOT flawed and I DO believe in them.  How am I going to try and give Falconer an answer to his question if you FLAW what I'm trying to do.  You want people to answer but yet when we try you are trying to cut it off.  Don't you really want to know these answers or are you afraid it will knock your disbelief out in left field? 

You answered the second question that "yes, the *current* ('as you call it') universe began to exist." Thank you.  

Now, if you would, please answer the first question, "Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?"

[jcribb16]

Quote from jcribb:
Do you think the universe just happened for no reason whatsoever, or that there was a reason?  I can't go further until you give me your yes or no answer.  I'm trying to build up to prove where ID and God are there.

Quote from Falconer:
Ah okay. I must have not really been thinking about it too hard at 2:30 AM. But yes, this universe began to exist in the way we conceptualize existence. Was there a reason? What came before it? I don't know.

Thank you for answering.  Now, if the universe began to exist, then there had to be a cause for its existence to come into place.  Do you agree or disagree?  Remember, that space and time have to be a part of this coming of the universe.  

[Falconer02]

Thank you for answering.  Now, if the universe began to exist, then there had to be a cause for its existence to come into place.  Do you agree or disagree?

Bah I just wrote a paragraph and accidentally closed the window. So I'll try to recall what I wrote-

Remember, that space and time have to be a part of this coming of the universe

The best answer I can give you is possibly. This is an extremely broad question, and considering we can't even go beyond the first 4 dimensions is the reason why I can't give a good answer to you. There may have been universes or multiverses before ours and they simply recycled eachother infinitely (another word we cannot grasp), so origin or cause has no place within this question. There may have been nothing at all and existence was a fluke and will never have a good explanation. Or maybe a horny metaphysical alien being ejaculated into dead space and created matter.

[jcribb16]

Thank you for answering.  Now, if the universe began to exist, then there had to be a cause for its existence to come into place.  Do you agree or disagree?

Bah I just wrote a paragraph and accidentally closed the window. So I'll try to recall what I wrote-

Remember, that space and time have to be a part of this coming of the universe

The best answer I can give you is possibly. This is an extremely broad question, and considering we can't even pass through the first 4 dimensions is the reason why I can't give a good answer to you. There may have been universes or multiverses before ours and they simply recycled eachother infinitely (another word we cannot grasp), so origin or cause has no place within this question. There may have been nothing at all and existence was a fluke and will never have a good explanation. Or maybe a horny metaphysical alien being ejaculated into dead space and created matter.

Before I go any further, would you actually believe your last 2 reasons over say, the Big Bang Theory,"  or God's creation?