I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[tdsantiago1]

  People will make you believe that the devil is in people that wears all black, or that doesnt go to church, but this is not true. The Devil is in the actions that people do to people.

[queenofnines]

Seriously If you say you don't believe in God or Hell, then you are admitting to their existence. but you are choosing not to believe because you you feel it is easier than dealing with the guilt that you have for doing things that you know are morally wrong.  I hope you can get over your own pride and hypocrisy before you find out the hard way how really wrong your thinking is aligned.

What a *gem* of a comment.  /sarcasm  It's comments like these that make me worry for humanity, truly. 

Do you believe in leprechauns Trebor?  No?  Well sorry, you just admitted their existence!  (Do you see how dumb that is?)

If anything, by y'all saying that you have to BELIEVE in a god, that actually does prove that he/she/it is not a fact.  I don't have to "believe" in gravity, or germs, or evolution, because these are all demonstrably true...unlike your magic man who exists only in your head.

And what exactly have I done that is morally wrong?  I don't torment my child when they tell me that they're gay; I don't cut off family members of a different religion; I don't harass scared women at the abortion clinic; I don't selfishly pray for invisible forces to better my life; I don't tell strangers they deserve unending agony simply for being born (hell)...all things that religious people do.

It's also not a matter of pride, and the term hypocrisy doesn't even make sense as a criticism.

I Do Believe in God and Hell, I Don't, however, believe in President Barrak Hussein Obama or his politics, But that doesn't make him any less real or less of a threat to my well being now does it? And since I have never met him in person nor I bet have you, I seriously doubt you could prove Obama really exists either. Wouldn't you like to know his real name?

OMG!!  Australia must not exist either!!!  Have you ever been there?  No?!  Then how do you KNOW it exists?!

Seriously, Trebor, THINK.  Pllllllleeeeeaaasssssee.

[jordandog]

from Annella:

Yes, it was me (about the healing of AIDS).  I offered to provide phone numbers to jordandog, but was told it wouldn't prove anything because I could just have anyone say anything.

No, Annella, that is not what my reply to you consisted of, not even close. This is in fact exactly what I said to you. If you think I 'edited it', you and others can go look for yourselves because there will be NO edit notice at the end of it in the original thread. It also touches on some things brought up again here by Falconer, which I also wrote in other replies in the original thread such as testing modalities, knowledge of doctors, etc. Here is what I did say and I don't see anywhere that I said to you "because I could just have anyone say anything":

190    Discussion Boards / Debate & Discuss / Re: Religion and Homosexuality Message ID: 243734 on: September 26, 2010, 08:36:51 pm  
Annella,
Sorry it took me so long to answer your post about this. I have run on no sleep and too much work the last week - actually slept for 9 straight hours which is unheard of for me. I also spent quite a bit of time doing some checking on things, which is in what I wrote below.

Thanks, but no thanks as to the offer of contacting people with knowledge of God healing some from AIDS. I am sure that they all would in fact tell me they have seen it happen and what am I supposed to say or do? Tell them they are full of it and inform them that, by rights, they should furnish medically sound documentation to all associations across the world? That would certainly NOT be my style to do so, no matter how much I might want to. Since you wrote that, I have made many phone calls of my own to friends/colleagues across the US and also gone to online sites of every association I am a paying and/or registered member of - AMA, CDC, AACN, AACR, WHO, AEGIS(the AIDS Global Base), quite a few more, and have thrown the question out there after searching for it on my own - “Do any of you know of, have documentation of an AIDS patient being cured through prayer?” The answer so far (after some laughing and asking me if I was serious, drunk, or self-prescribing:P) has been a resounding “NO, as if you wouldn’t know about it if I had?!” I said in another discussion, which queen mentioned, this which I found and copied to put here in case you didn’t see it: I have mentioned that I have seen plenty of things happen with patients that cannot be explained and probably never will. It is at those times I actually say, either to myself or out loud, "That was a miracle." The difference now, as opposed to when I fully believed, is that I am once again amazed by the sheer will of the human body and mind to survive. Not by a supernatural act of a divine agent.

They were NOT in the scope of AIDS disappearing. There are probably thousands of surgeons who have gone in to remove some type of tumor or anomalous growth, only to find it was NOT what they thought, not in the area they thought, and even not seeing it period. That is BEFORE the advancements we now have in every form of diagnostics such as imaging of every kind imaginable. There are also many less than stellar docs out there. They may use inferior/older testing means, interpret a blood clot a as a ‘tumor’, go in to remove, and it’s gone - because the body reabsorbed it, but there will still be evidence present to suggest that. There are any number of situations where things appear really ‘wonky’, but they are explainable. When they aren’t, as I said, it is admitted that we/they do NOT know what happened. There are thousands of stories out there from Third World countries of ‘miracles’ abounding. I won’t go into it all here, but let’s just say 99.9% of those are due to ignorance and/or misinterpretation. There are times when those stories become very dangerous also. Right now, there is a yet another doctor in Africa who is claiming to be curing AIDS patients left and right. The result is that people are now refusing meds and treatment and I am sure I don’t need to tell you how irresponsible and dangerous on a worldwide level THAT is. I hope someday to be able to write or say it's been discovered and to be able to administer a cure for AIDS, not to mention a host of other illnesses. You know what else? IF any of those proven cures came as the result of some divine intervention, so be it. I don’t care where they come from, I just want them to come.

[Willie353]

I believe a God does exist so does the devil.We get our breath from God when he takes it away we are dead

[Willie353]

To talk t :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time

[Annella]

Uh, yes, right here on Fusion Cash.

Bleh. Sorry to hear that.

Yes, it was me (about the healing of AIDS).  I offered to provide phone numbers to jordandog, but was told it wouldn't prove anything because I could just have anyone say anything.  I've seen a deaf and dumb man hear and speak. I was there. His phonics were off, but we asked him to say "Praise God", and he did!  Thing is falconer, when I tell of these things, I get it dissected into falsehood, and thrown back into my face.  I don't feel like giving such nuggets of gold out, just to be mocked.  They are too precious to lay out for ridicule.  There are things I've seen and witnessed, that it would seem like a fairy tale.  Anyway.......how can I prove it, except to put you in contact with those that were healed?  Would you believe it then, or still accuse me of falsehood?  The threads are still around somewhere, I can't remember the title.  It went on a long time.

Well I won't mock you here. I will contest your claims though. After all, you are diving into a controversial subject- faith healing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ-7beRITYM

There is no cure for AIDS. Has this person seen a doctor afterwards? Is there something online you can show me where this was documented? This is BIG news to me if it's true, so I need to be skeptical in order to believe it. It's the smart thing to do, right? Because one could conclude either the person didn't have AIDS in the first place (perhaps it was a ruse), their test was fumbled up (with certain tests of this nature, there are mistakes made-- 'fluke' is a key term here), or they were never examined afterwards and may still have it (symptoms may not show up years after the diagnosis). Did they order the test via mail or did they go to a hospital? What was the time gap between being diagnosed and healed? Was the doctor/nurse of this infectee from the church? If I were in your position, I would make it mandatory for myself to present these things to the people questioning. Because if I don't, this might as well be another "Miracle cure tonic" like in the old days.

Don't get me wrong- that would be amazing if this could be proven to be completely true. This is a massive and problematic disease after all! I can imagine if this were authentic faith healing, infected people would be lining up for miles to wherever this took place. I would hear about it constantly on the news from famous skeptics-- "AIDS cure found! No joke! Authentic! Faith!". You'd make a believer outta me in seconds if I could see this in action. But there are massive hurdles that I don't see being answered. Isn't it a bit selfish to just heal one person, and not go around curing the millions who are stricken with this horrific disease (that also believe your ways)? Then there's also the people who are just so into it that their stubbornness, fearfulness, and delusional thinking would allow for complete lies. Sure you could put me in contact with the "healed", but honestly look at those victims in the video. They believe they've been healed by this con man too!

I'd believe this once the questions have been answered and are majorly in favor of your beliefs. It would prove me wrong, and I'd have no beef with that! I'd tip my hat to you. But is that the case? Would all these questions result in unexplainable phenomena? I highly doubt it. This is not rudely throwing your claims back in your face. I'm just sliding it back and saying "need mo info".

Keep the money.  The Gospel, and it's Truth is free to anyone.  You know Falconer, the Bible talks about a generation who wants to see a sign, and no sign will be given to them. We don't exact or command God to show us anything.  Did it ever occur to you that what I'm telling you what I witnessed, may be what God gauges your heart with?  In other words, I don't know your heart, but God does. I know enough about the Lord to say with assurance that if a sign would bring you to Him, he would probably provide it.  Maybe it has to be something personal that only you and He works out.  So it's personal and undeniable.  I've known people to ask God for confirmation about one thing or the other.  Not tell anyone, just in their heart, and God answered them.  Something that needs divine intervention or it won't get fixed. Not something for gain like "If you give me X amount of dollars by such and such of date".......you won't see squat because you asked incorrectly.

My point with the money was just to help out others-- not personal financial gain. If you think this AIDS thing is legit, go test it out at JREF. But this is getting a little too personal to the point where if I tread on anything in this paragraph, I'm going to step on a tripmine and I don't want to upset you with my chin rubbing. That, and I'm lazy tonight and don't feel like writing 12 paragraphs.

Edit:

Whoa, there...  I am not laughing at reason. Please don't accuse me of something I have not done or even said I've done.

My mistake. Sorry. Too many words in this thread to remember who said what and where.

These are people that I would have to have their permission of contact.  I could get it, and they would be happy to talk to you, but would you believe them talking on the phone?  You brought up the medical community, and that is another good resource.  Just like what I wrote to jordandog, there are documented cases of miracle healings in their files.  I myself have seen God heal just about everything.  In fact, my organization believes in healing.  It's in our Articles of Faith.  I've been healed....do you believe that?

You brought up a very good question why they aren't lined up.  I don't know, however, I've seen God heal those outside the church also.  Not a lot, but here we are at the according to your "Faith" argument.  You must believe that God can do this.  He is no respecter of persons.  There are many patriarchs and elders of our organization that have written books on personal experiences of healing and the miracles of God they have witnessed.

You see, already your trying to logic it out with.....maybe the person didn't have AIDS to begin with, tests were fumbled, on and on.  If you really came up against someone who was really healed, I don't think you would believe it, you would still rationalize it in your mind.  No wonder the Lord relates someone coming to Him as having the spirit as a little child.....no questions or boundaries, or proof....just faith that He is. However, I know there are a lot of false teachers out there saying they can do this and that.  I don't want to offend anyone, but the TV Evangelists come to mind.

Now we get in an area where you are pushing me into a corner to say things you won't believe either because of past conversations on this forum.  Why are the millions out there still diseased if there is healing power for them? Yes, why?  Let me ask this, what is their lifestyle, what kind of sin are they in and don't want to let go of? What has them trapped and bound?  Why is there such resistance to God and the Belief in Him and that he is a miracle working God?  You only have to look in this forum to answer those question.  In other words, show us a sign God, but we don't have to believe it.  Why should God show you anything if you don't even believe who He is and a rewarder of those who seek Him?  Do you believe in an enemy that owns this world and the sin in it.  That fights God every step of the way?  it's not just show us this and we will believe.  They did that in Jesus time too.  He healed EVERYONE who came to Him.  Did it save Him from being crucified?

However, I'm trying to find a way to get some information to you without this forum.  My identity has been hacked into, so I'm very careful about my personal information.  Jcribb and few others have it, but I trust them. Not everybody can be trusted as you well know.

[Annella]

To talk t :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time

You are correct and smarter than I am in this.

[Annella]

People will make you believe that the devil is in people that wears all black, or that doesnt go to church, but this is not true. The Devil is in the actions that people do to people.

Black is the basis of my wardrobe, with a spattering of red (my favorite color), with some charcoal thrown in.  I'm an Evangelist and wear black more often than not.  The Bible says that satan can transform himself into an angel of light falsely to do his dirty work.  So looks can be deceiving and colors that people wear.

[Annella]

Seriously If you say you don't believe in God or Hell, then you are admitting to their existence. but you are choosing not to believe because you you feel it is easier than dealing with the guilt that you have for doing things that you know are morally wrong.  I hope you can get over your own pride and hypocrisy before you find out the hard way how really wrong your thinking is aligned.

What a *gem* of a comment.  /sarcasm  It's comments like these that make me worry for humanity, truly.  

Do you believe in leprechauns Trebor?  No?  Well sorry, you just admitted their existence!  (Do you see how dumb that is?)

If anything, by y'all saying that you have to BELIEVE in a god, that actually does prove that he/she/it is not a fact.  I don't have to "believe" in gravity, or germs, or evolution, because these are all demonstrably true...unlike your magic man who exists only in your head.

And what exactly have I done that is morally wrong?  I don't torment my child when they tell me that they're gay; I don't cut off family members of a different religion; I don't harass scared women at the abortion clinic; I don't selfishly pray for invisible forces to better my life; I don't tell strangers they deserve unending agony simply for being born (hell)...all things that religious people do.

It's also not a matter of pride, and the term hypocrisy doesn't even make sense as a criticism.

I Do Believe in God and Hell, I Don't, however, believe in President Barrak Hussein Obama or his politics, But that doesn't make him any less real or less of a threat to my well being now does it? And since I have never met him in person nor I bet have you, I seriously doubt you could prove Obama really exists either. Wouldn't you like to know his real name?

OMG!!  Australia must not exist either!!!  Have you ever been there?  No?!  Then how do you KNOW it exists?!

Seriously, Trebor, THINK.  Pllllllleeeeeaaasssssee.

No....you think.....qon.  You'r not a hypocrite.  You'r the Atheist in the bunch that use to be a Christian.  I'd call that a turncoat....a Judas.  Too harsh, or true?  Quit putting down new people because they have something to say.  Your sarcasm makes me want to puke.  Your are the most abrasive miserable person I've ever known to post on a forum.  

You haven't learned the art to post without putting people down or sarcasm.  That shows how insecure you are. Those who do that have to build themselves up by putting others down.  It also shows you have nothing to contribute except negativity.

[Annella]

Trebor and Willie......come in here any time you want and say what you want.  This is your forum also.  qon is a miserable woman who hates God, Bible, etc.  Oh wait, she confesses to be an Atheist.  She spends her time putting down Christians, and those who believe in His existence and the Bible.  While a lot of people don't believe that way, they are courteous about it.  qon has not learned the common art of manners.

Welcome to Fusion Cash!

[Falconer02]

Jdog's post

I love you, Jdog. I really do.

These are people that I would have to have their permission of contact.  I could get it, and they would be happy to talk to you, but would you believe them talking on the phone?  You brought up the medical community, and that is another good resource.  Just like what I wrote to jordandog, there are documented cases of miracle healings in their files.  I myself have seen God heal just about everything.  In fact, my organization believes in healing.  It's in our Articles of Faith.  I've been healed....do you believe that?

Honestly? No I don't. Did you watch the video? Did you read Jordan's post? She said there are no favorable documented cases. Here, skim this-

http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/HerbsVitaminsandMinerals/faith-healing

There's a reason that rational people don't bother much with faith healers. With the evidence presented, it is nothing more than positive claims that comfort people in pain. If positive thought helps heal or blur the pain from these individuals, cool. But promoting and advertising the supernatural should not go beyond the bounds of that specific church. Why? Because it get's dangerous- as presented in the video. People are gullible everywhere you go.

Of course the victims are going to tell me it worked though. Would I believe them? No. I'd need every single variable at my disposal before I would. Because if this is legitimate, I could help save millions of people by spreading this information. THIS IS AIDS! Would I get those undoctored variables? In these rare cases, probably not. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with choosing this educated course of action. If I were to see 10,000 (legitimately-tested) infected people --all with various beliefs including your own-- go to a faith healer you subscribe to and they are all found to be (legitimately) cured, I would believe. But all I see are isolated stories-- aka flukes at best.

Why are the millions out there still diseased if there is healing power for them? Yes, why?  Let me ask this, what is their lifestyle, what kind of sin are they in and don't want to let go of? What has them trapped and bound?

Attributing diseases to specific lifestyles is a slippery slope.There are plenty of roads I could take on this one, but if you can't see them, I don't think it's really worth going into.

However, I'm trying to find a way to get some information to you without this forum.  My identity has been hacked into, so I'm very careful about my personal information.  Jcribb and few others have it, but I trust them. Not everybody can be trusted as you well know.

I have enough people in my life trying to constantly convert me-- a primary reason why us non-believers get so aggrevated by this stuff. The most recent bouts, aside from this one, was with some Mormon missionaries and some girl on FB who is taking the exact same approach you are right now. Queen has read some of the other past stories of this with me. I do appreciate the gesture, but no thanks. Been there, done that.

To talk t  :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time

Not true. Talking to a guy who does not proofread his posts is a waste of time!

qon is a miserable woman who hates God, Bible, etc.

I can present proof of this not being true! lol She's a very good person. She has introduced me to a lot of brilliant new concepts. And in that post you quoted, she made some specific (though extreme) examples of why people are bothered by these biblical followers. Trebor's reasonings were filled with insanely large gaps. Though if I were her, I would have saved myself some time and just thrown on a facepalm picture.  

[SCarter984]

Uh, hey guys, I done run out of popcorn.  And where did marieelissa go?  She got this started.  You know, I think there should be a section in the forum just for people to disagree with each other.  It has been an interesting read, but my eyeballs are bleeding.  Gotta go say my prayers and go to bed now.  Nighty-nite!  :wave:se

[Annella]

Then falconer, there is nothing I can do then to get certain material in your hands.  After the last post, I don't want to either.  

I think you just insulted me with the different roads answer.  I keep forgetting I'm talking to an unbeliever.  

qon is absolutely toxic.  She is horrible to people without any provocation what so ever.  Especially those who want to say something, and she cuts them off at the knees.  She absolutely "dumped' on those 2 newbies.  Something she does quite often.  I don't care if you don't like Christians or what they have to say, but this is a PUBLIC FORUM, and everybody has a right to use it.  Even those who have Christian dialogue.  Why don't you go get your own website with a forum, then you can censor who you want to post.  

Sorry I wasted your time, you obviously are now trying to muddy the waters with your redundant requests like putting a number (10,000), from various religions, etc., etc.  Nope, you don't want to know anything, and I'm done. I told the Truth and God knows it.  He's the only one I have to answer to after this life.  I have nothing to prove to anyone.  My walk with God is too precious for me to "put it out there" anymore with you.  

I wasted my time, something I don't like to do because I never get it back.

To talk t  :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time

Not true. Talking to a guy who does not proofread his posts is a waste of time!

It's not like we're turning in copy to be printed in the Wall Street Journal, it's an internet forum for goodness sake! Since when did Fusion Cash hire you and qon to police the spelling and grammer?  

[jcribb16]

Quote from Willie:
To talk t  :BangHead:o an atheist is a waste of time

Quote from Falconer:
Not true. Talking to a guy who does not proofread his posts is a waste of time!

Quote from Annella:
It's not like we're turning in copy to be printed in the Wall Street Journal, it's an internet forum for goodness sake! Since when did Fusion Cash hire you and qon to police the spelling and grammer? 

I agree.  Falconer, you made a mistake yourself in a post to me. Remember that I told you that it was not the issue at hand... See below:

Quote from Falconer:
They were well-explained. But they were also very fallicious. That's what myself and others are commenting on

Quote also from Falconer:
You asserted fallacious (omg got it rite)

 Quote from jcribb:
 (P.S. Yes, you spelled it right! I don't worry about those kind of things, like qon does, because it's not the issue at hand.  Everyone makes mistakes.)

[Falconer02]

I agree.  Falconer, you made a mistake yourself in a post to me. Remember that I told you that it was not the issue at hand... See below:

I was aware. 1 mistake out of...? I never cared if people make a mistake here and there. My point in saying that was this guy posted a total of 3 'sentences' and they're written like a 10 year old. I'd be surprised if he even read any of your/Annella's nice posts to them.  These people doing the whole post-and-leave thing...blah! Itz too commom! This is trivial though. I really don't care.

Then falconer, there is nothing I can do then to get certain material in your hands.  After the last post, I don't want to either.

Odd that the FB girl said the exact same thing. She said she wanted to give me some random book on christianity, but then said I was too full of myself to understand her or the book. All because I just asked some open-ended questions. I wish I could remember the title of it though.

I think you just insulted me with the different roads answer.  I keep forgetting I'm talking to an unbeliever.

I didn't insult you nor was that my intention. The reasoning you gave was extremely black and white. That's all. If you want me to post the problems that I see, I will. But I doubt it will add much to the topic.

qon is absolutely toxic.  She is horrible to people without any provocation what so ever.  Especially those who want to say something, and she cuts them off at the knees.  She absolutely "dumped' on those 2 newbies.  Something she does quite often.  I don't care if you don't like Christians or what they have to say, but this is a PUBLIC FORUM, and everybody has a right to use it.  Even those who have Christian dialogue.  Why don't you go get your own website with a forum, then you can censor who you want to post.  

I look at her response to Trebor64. The user insults nonbelievers with absolutely naive assumptions, and she responds with why Trebor's reasonings are both extremely insulting and throws his garbage right back at him. If you think they're rude posts, I would suggest trying to look at what she is presenting internally, rather than how one hears the tone of the post in their mind.

And why would I censor anyone? This is a public forum. I don't need a personal forum to rule over with an iron fist. I have my robot army for that.

Sorry I wasted your time, you obviously are now trying to muddy the waters with your redundant requests like putting a number (10,000), from various religions, etc., etc.  Nope, you don't want to know anything, and I'm done. I told the Truth and God knows it.  He's the only one I have to answer to after this life.  I have nothing to prove to anyone.  My walk with God is too precious for me to "put it out there" anymore with you.  

The waters became hard thick mud when you introduced faith healing. I presented some ideas of how we can clear up the mud, Jdog presented information that was evidence that you can clear up the mud, but you walk away claiming victory to yourself without acknowledging anything but yourself. Whatever.

"Debating Creationists on many topics is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory." - Scott D. Weitzenhoffe