I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[Falconer02]

I realize I posted this in another similar thread but it fits in here, also.  So I hope you don't mind if I repeat myself from a different thread.  It seems the main disagreement implies that there is an action by God upon a person that negates His freedom to choose. So that would mean the the person making a choice is affected by God's knowledge to such an extent that in essence he really doesn't have that freedom after all.  If that's so, can you prove it logically?

Already did. If you haven't learned it by now, look up "Logical Fatalism" and get ready for a headache of epic proportions!!!

We know that God's knowing what we will choose is a function of His omnipresence, since He is in all places all the time.  That in itself, is hard to understand.  However, this question or disagreement is always going to be unanswerable concretely because when you think about it, we all work in time.  God works outside of time. God deals with the past, present, and future realities and only He knows what has been chosen, is being chose, and will be chosen.  Another idea of this, too, is that the past, present, and future were created for us for our understanding of time.

Then the only way to conclude realistically is to say that christians are restricted due to their god's power and that there's this unfair standard present. Going further jumps into the realm of a 'fantasies fantasy', and this is precisely why any free thinker dismisses this idea from the get-go because it gets so speculative that it's just psychotically irrational to jump to conclusions. Jdog explained it better in another thread going on. There are some interesting work-arounds to this concept I brought up, but those aspects bring about some new big problems themselves. To sum it up, one could compare this whole thing to kids playing cops and robbers.
"Bang! I got you!"
"Nuh-uh! I have a bullet-proof vest!"
"Then ZAP! I shot you with my laser rifle!"
"Nuh-uh! I have vortex shielding!"
etc. etc.
Obviously the kid who's shooting is going to get fed up and say they've ruined the game by not going by anything understandable and that they're making the game too 'far-out' for everyone. The believer will keep on making up ideas to try to allow for it without just accepting an obvious flaw (a la 'shot'), which means it's not even worth debating over because it's so fanatically fantastical and hokey.

God works outside of time.

So does Chuck Norris.

[ricky981]

Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.

  i wasn't going to touch on this but is just too good to past up now there is such thing as good and evil. if you have read the bible i mean really read it then you would know that god first angel that want it all was who?

[marieelissa]

Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.

  i wasn't going to touch on this but is just too good to past up now there is such thing as good and evil. if you have read the bible i mean really read it then you would know that god first angel that want it all was who?

Santa Clause

[teflonfanatic]

Yay...that was horrible! Believers had me thinking this "God" was so cruel to actually put people in hell or create a Devil. I don't think anyone in the world knows who the real God is...if one exists though, I am gonna try and find out who it is.

  i wasn't going to touch on this but is just too good to past up now there is such thing as good and evil. if you have read the bible i mean really read it then you would know that god first angel that want it all was who?

It's unclear for most who the first angel was besides JW's for obvious reasons. Satan was a high level angel who fall from grace. His first lie (which is often misinterpreted by atheists and the like as claiming God didn't want his servants to be smart) was to contradict God by saying that eaten the fruit will not kill you but instead make you morally independent of God(knowing good and bad) or making themselves God and Goddess(Genesis 3:4-5). Since then Satan amassed a group of angels under him which are known as demons and he'll try a coup de tat on God's kingdom and fail as the Michael wars in revelation point out.

@Jcribb: If the God of order works outside of time then explain 2 Peter 3:8 which reads in bible in basic english(that's a real translation)

 But, my loved ones, keep in mind this one thing, that with the Lord one day is the same as a thousand years, and a thousand years are no more than one day.

[vicogden]

I agree with the initial post:  I believe in Karma and differences in the length of time it will take each individual soul to progress to the "light" we are all heading toward (and part of) as interconnected beings, but I don't believe in a "fire and damnation"-type Hell.  Would a loving, omnipotent Spirit, i.e. God, subject a soul to burn in Hell for eternity, or would the same loving God give a Soul a chance to make up for mistakes and continue onward on an eternal journey to the light?  I think it's the latter.

[teflonfanatic]

I agree with the initial post:  I believe in Karma and differences in the length of time it will take each individual soul to progress to the "light" we are all heading toward (and part of) as interconnected beings, but I don't believe in a "fire and damnation"-type Hell.  Would a loving, omnipotent Spirit, i.e. God, subject a soul to burn in Hell for eternity, or would the same loving God give a Soul a chance to make up for mistakes and continue onward on an eternal journey to the light?  I think it's the latter.

Would you think it will be just to force people to feel pain for all eternity or put them out of their misery(stop living and feeling pain). They do get a second chance during the 1,000 year reign of Christ(well most of them)

[Ttown32]

 Anybody wants the true:"READ YOUR BIBLE"

[teflonfanatic]

Anybody wants the true:"READ YOUR BIBLE"

I do read the bible i'm currently on the book of Job, why did you highlight it red?

[travislang]

ok i will settle this thing ok.....my belief is this, there is no hell for which you get to spend eternity in torchor. that is just a scheme that christianity came up with to make there followers afraid and live in fear so as to keep them in control....the devel on the other hand, well the devel does not exist but in ourselves. in other words the devel is you and your mind. it is there inside of you telling you what it is that you personally think is wrong or right. it is there telling you what is sin to you. but for some yes it is from christianity and its liturature telling them what it is. but be sure it is nothing of the sorts, the devel or satan is nothing more then you your selves. 

[marieelissa]

For those people who constantly contradict that our God and His Word (Bible) aren't real, think about this. Have you ever thought that if there is no God and no Bible, then why is so much of our country's buildings, monuments, courts, etc. based on that very God you deny?  There are the 10 commandments listed in the courts, the president-to-be (or any other kind of swearing in) has to take his/her oath on the Bible, "In God we trust" is on our money, etc. I know a lot of people don't agree with all of this and want to change it or take it out.  But the fact is, it is there, and yet people still argue about no God.

It was pretty much the first scientific theory ever. The idea of god or gods has always existed as a way to explain the unexplainable. Primitive humans lived in fear and superstition based on what they saw happening in the world. They didn’t know about the cycle of evaporation so they didn’t know why the rain fell. So they created a deity or spirit that lives in the sky and causes it to rain. The Christian God is nothing more than another god in a long line of superstitious creations. I believe it was created to manipulate the masses, to control us, to make us mindless sheep. It's easy to scare people into this kind of thing, especially back then when you got stoned for not following their rules. It was the quickest way to make the people do as they were told. Since they were so scared that they'd burn in hell, it was easy to do.

God is not a superstitious creation. As I said above, some of the founding fathers may not have labled the US as a Christian nation, at the time, but there was a strong agreement that much of the discipline, attitudes, and moral abilities were to be based on Godly principles. 
I do agree with you that humans created deities or spirits or gods to help them explain the unexplainable.  At the same time, the Biblical history from thousands of years past, laid the foundation from the beginning to prepare the way for the Saviour. There was the old law and after Jesus's birth, death, and resurrection, the new law. God began with the creation of this world and it will end with a new heaven and an eternal place of punishment.  God is real.

Man wrote the bible not God and just so you know...revelations was written by a schizophrenic.

[marieelissa]

Falconer, you know good and well you can NOT prove there is no God.  If it makes you feel better to think you can, go right ahead. If you want to continue to think of it as a joke, go ahead. All I can say is that what you and some others do and/or say against what Christians believe WILL definitely haunt you later.color]

This sounds like a threat...I guess threatening is the last resort to convert a person.

[walksalone11]

I will be very happy to have a face to face with Creator and defend my actions of speaking out and fighting against all the atrocities committed and being committed in the name of Christianity. If Creator condones all of the supremacy and intolerance commanded by the Xtian doctrine, I would not want to spend an eternity in any "heaven".

[marieelissa]

I can choose my destiny. You cannot. Your god is all-knowing and eternal, therefore it has already been chosen for you. Unless your god is imperfect, your freewill is a completely sugar-coated illusion. Mine is up for philosophical debate  

Just because God knows what you're going to do doesn't mean you don't get any decisions. You don't know what you're going to do and therefore you are free to decide and choose what you will do. Sure God knows but you don't and you also still get to decide because you have a brain. Are your likes and dislikes from God? Nope, because you have your own mind that is capable of making decisions which is your free will but yes God is all knowing and knows the ending as well as the beginning.

Now, I am not saying I believe any of these but you keep using this silly free will arguement over and over and it gets annoying to see things being so repetitive.

[Falconer02]

Just because God knows what you're going to do doesn't mean you don't get any decisions. You don't know what you're going to do and therefore you are free to decide and choose what you will do. Sure God knows but you don't and you also still get to decide because you have a brain. Are your likes and dislikes from God? Nope, because you have your own mind that is capable of making decisions which is your free will but yes God is all knowing and knows the ending as well as the beginning.

So you believe that this god is a cheat then. One can play their hand of cards, but the game is rigged and only in favor of the dealer. Glad you acknowledged it.

Now, I am not saying I believe any of these but you keep using this silly free will arguement over and over and it gets annoying to see things being so repetitive.

Well sorry if it annoys you, but it shows a very strong contradiction with christian beliefs. If new users come in and start throwing around elementary religious arguments, I will continue to use it. Just a heads up.

I will be very happy to have a face to face with Creator and defend my actions of speaking out and fighting against all the atrocities committed and being committed in the name of Christianity. If Creator condones all of the supremacy and intolerance commanded by the Xtian doctrine, I would not want to spend an eternity in any "heaven".

G4U. I forget who said this-
"God has a thing for a community of idiots"

[marieelissa]

Um, y'all have the same destiny: dead in the dirt.

Yes, that is what happens to our bodies or being cremated. But we also have energy in us that leaves when we die and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The only thing is, this energy doesn't have a conscience...so we will not live for an eternity the way christians describe it.