I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[Annella]

Just got caught up on this thread and see, yet again, a perfect example of 'making a mountain out of a molehill' and making something say what the person reading it wants it to say, not what it DOES say.
teflonfanatic:

@Annela: You don't have to feel compelled or forced to post every other day to my responses you can post every 2 to 3 weeks for all I care, and I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.

You, Annella, come back with this:

Teflonfanatic, this is a public forum, and I can post whenever I like.  I most certainly disagree with how you interpret scripture.  That's why you do not want me to post.

What the heck? How many times have you stated you are busy, you have been over things with him before, etc.? I take what he said as telling you it's not necessary to reply to all he says when he says it, he is still going to post, and he also agreed WITH you on one point. That turns into, in your head, him telling you when you are 'allowed' to post and you go sooo far as to imply he "doesn't want you to post." It is impossible to reason with an unreasonable person, no matter what is said. Why the remark about it being "a public forum"? Where did he remotely try to 'restrict' you and your views? It seems you really are only able to get along with and be decent to the few that believe the same way you do - it is NOT just those of us who question and/or do not believe your bible and fear your devil.

Go ahead and call me out for 'picking' at you or a point, I don't care. That really ticked me off when I saw it. If, as you say ad nauseam, "God is not the author of confusion",

In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.
Nietzsche

What I find funny is all 3 of you (falconer, qon, yourself) jumping on the band wagon when I wasn't even discussing anything with you.  It's what you all like to do.  

Oh, you got ticked off?  What else is new.  Since my posts are about the Bible and prophecy, and how it is interpreted by the JW's, I don't think any of you have a qualified post about it, since you all have denounced Christianity and it's teachings.  By all means, jump in with your interpretations of what you think the Revelations mean, and the time dispensations addressed.

You wrote:

why is everyone but you confused trying to interpret the Bible? It has confused biblical scholars much smarter than you for many years - they just happen to admit it.

My quote to qon:
We are discussing Biblical interpretation pertaining to prophecy which is difficult to interpret at best......by any flock.

At least read what I post before accusing me of something I have admitted.

Get ticked all you want.  Do I care?  Nope.

[Annella]

Poor attempt at humor...

You know jcribb, you did a huge logic fail in here awhile back, and I posted something calling you on it that could be described as "mean" because I was frustrated with your loose train of thought.  But I deleted it before you could read it, realizing you would never see the err of your ways, anyway, and not wanting to ruin anyone's day over minds that will never change.  But here you are, getting your scolds in every chance you get (this is just one of many examples).  My opinion of you has progressively lowered the more you've mirrored Annella, a woman who has not deserved the continual defense you provide on her part.  I have no desire to deal with two Annellas.  

Like your opinion lowered or otherwise is of any consequence to anyone.  As far as getting "scolds" in.  Anyone can go back and read the last 3 pages of this thread and see who is scolding who, and who is just coming in here to stir the pot!  What you like to do is back someone in the corner with your sarcastic verbal spewing and then your other 2 co horts can come in with their own attacks, and try to verbally take someone down.  Guess what, in case you haven't already figured it out.....I stand!

That's what is really making you mad isn't it?  That you can't brow beat me like you do others.  You write about me quite a bit in posts to other people, but not to me......so.....here's your chance.  One on One, just you and me qon.  I'll let you go first.......  Don't take your pot shots at me posting to someone else......here I am....You don't have to deal with 2 Annella's.  I'm the original, so lets go.

You talk about Jcribb's error of her ways.  Go look in the mirror!

[Annella]

My thoughts on what Hell could be (second death.....lake of fire):
You will have a body that cannot be destroyed (burnt up), so you are at the point of death all the time in the fire. You don't burn up, but are continually being in the flux of dying, but don't die.  Your memory is intact, and you can remember everything you did in your life that was contrary to God and His followers.  Every thought, word, deed, regret, etc., can be recalled with perfect clarity.  The chances you threw away to follow God are gone, and there is no end to your torment.  You call out for mercy, but there is none, because the dispensation of Grace in your life is passed, and there is no going back.  You have no clothing (naked). You are utterly forgotten.

Or Heaven:
The white robes go to the redeemed as their wedding garment.  The saved have a body that cannot be destroyed also. Bodies that can take eternal happiness.  They can dance, sing, and worship before God, for a hundred years, and never get tired. They can drink the water of life, and eat from the tree of life that will give them eternal life. No more sickness, tears, heartache, etc., for the former things are passed away.  They will not know that so and so didn't make it because there is no sadness there.  God will wipe all tears from their eyes but they will be tears of joy, not sorrow.  There will be a new Heaven and new Earth at that time that has no night, or sea.  It is eternal day, and eternal peace and happiness.

Everybody has a choice.  Choose this day who you will serve.

[teflonfanatic]

Quote from teflonfanatic:
I agree that the multitude is redeemed but they also have no heavenly duties or rewards given to them and that's the main point i'm trying to make.



Teflonfanatic,  I would first like to say that some of your posts are confusing in the way you jump back and forth with different ideas, Scripture, and answers.  So, if I am responding to something here that is not in conjunction with what you really are meaning here, then please forgive me.  I am responding to what I think you are talking about.

In Revelation 22:6 it says, "And he (one of the 7 angels, verse 9) said unto me (John, while in vision), 'These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.' "  This is indicative of duties to be done.

Regarding awards: Jesus, Himself, says in Revelation 22:12, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."  Jesus also says in Matthew 5:12 (for people who are persecuted and reviled, vs. 10,11), "Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."  I Corinthians 3:8,9 says, "Now he that planteth and he that wateresth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

There is more, but I just want to be sure I'm on the same wavelength as you are.

I see it as Jesus giving them rewards or duties and since he is giving them it, it can be said the rewards and duties are heavenly, I admit I can be wrong, Matthew 5:12 however may be considered a wrested scripture for the JW's i'll ask around and look into it??!!!  

@Annela: Your responses i'm responding to are in the order you said them.

1.  "While you like to stay in prophecy a lot, it really is not a "Salvational" issue.  You have the teachings of the JW that you are pushing on people, and that's confusing.  God is not the author of confusion."

The majority of the drama which is vindication of God's sovereignty is in prophecy.  You are right the Rev prophecies are not salvation issue but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discern it, at the same time i'm well aware of this verse believe it or not, "Do not all interpretations belong to God"(Genesis 40:

P.S. I know the context is about Joseph having a prophetic dream and only God can interpret it, still I think you can agree that all interpretations belong to God.

2.  "While I understand the 1,000 year reign of peace, that is NOT the new heaven and new earth.  There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace).  The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time."

what I agree with will be in bold below and  what I disagree with will be slashed out below!

1,000 year reign is not new heaven and new earth

There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace).

The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time."

Jesus reigns in heaven not earth, "he said his kingdom is no part of this world"(John 18:36), also since all good people go to heaven(you believe it even though we agree God chooses who's good or not) your going to have MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people judging each other(1 Corinthians 6:1-3).

I also believe that the ones who will be resurrected during Christs presence are some of the 144K who died before he came. So that's what  believe the rapture is.

3. You have a lot of time periods and dispensations running all together during one dispensation.  However, prophecy is interpreted through many time dispensations.  While some scriptures have past, present, and future happenings in them, it does not mean that they are happening all at once.  God does not live in a time boundary as we do.  He is eternal.  According to Him, we are already raptured, and praising Him around the Throne, among other things. His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways.


I never said it's happening all at once, the sealing although happening now is not completed, obviously the resurrection and the binding of satan and the 1,000 years hasn't happened yet and is definitely not happening now etc.  We are already raptured? Let's just forget about then in fact why are you here instead of in heaven if your already raptured according to God   The Israelites back then and us today praise God in a place of worship but are we in literal heaven when we do that? A place that's made with hands and is of this creation? The greater tabernacle is not made with hands and of this creation(Hebrews 9:11)

4. The redeemed in the first resurrection (in the grave or alive) will reign with Christ during the 1,000 years of peace. They most certainlydo have duties and rewards given to them.  What I have noticed is you say nothing of the rapture.  Do you believe in such?

As I stated before I believe the resurrected on the first resurrection are the 144K that died before Christ came back. My point is the rewards and duties for those in the first resurrection are clearly heavenly, for the sake of clarity all the rewards and duties will be listed below starting from heavenly.

HEAVEN

1. Co-rule with Christ for 1,000 years(equal in authority)
2. Immortality
3. They become spirit creatures that are not flesh and bone just like Jesus
4. Live in heaven

EARTH

1. They are subject and is not spoken of as ruling with Jesus or judging people or angels etc.
2. They are some of the unrighteous resurrected during the second resurrection(Acts 24:15)
3. They are the ones building houses, having a land with occupy and working their hands to the full(Isaiah 65:20-25); Isaiah 66:1
4. They live on Earth

5. Your hostility towards me is unfounded.  Only because I questioned your interpretation of Holy Scriptures?  Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is.  You pick and choose a lot of scriptures and throw them out, but they have little or nothing to do with the subject or the dispensation being addressed.  Also, like I said before, prophecy (Revelations) is not the easiest to interpret.  However, scripture will interpret scripture, and you need the Holy Ghost to reveal certain portions of scripture through study.  I mentioned my Salvational born again experience according to scripture, but you have chosen to ignore that as well, when it is all together Biblical (Acts 2:38).

To be quite honest I don't see the hostility, I want you to question however it is frustrating when you try to explain something and it the person gets the explanation different or even backwards, this is probably my own downfall though, considering i'm terrible at communication.

The only way to interpret revelation is to use the bible from both parts to understand the visions and the symbols etc with study and God's spirit. All the scriptures I posted had to do with the born again ruling with Christ, resurrection and the multitude and that's what we have been talking about this whole time so what's the problem?

As for your being born again on a baptismal i'm not going to judge you on that, only God knows if your baptized with fire instead of water and possibly yourself. However many are baptized in the name of the father, son and holy spirit(Matthew 28:19).  Again if being baptized means that they all good people go to heaven then there's the issue of millions if not billions judging each other (1 Corinthians 6:1-3).

6.  WHAT?  Ancient Israel didn't praise God with singing?  You need to go back and read the Old Testament.  The singers and musicians were appointed to do just that in the temple in the wilderness.  Even before that!  The singers and musicians a lot of times went before the Ark with singing and praising God.

Your right there was a select group of singers and musicians appointed to sing and play music, however other then the Exodus song I don't recall Israel as a whole playing instruments or singing, i'm humbly willing to admit i'm wrong though and it's nice to see you reading the old covenant it should be emphasized more, I also said MOST not ALL!!

[Annella]

The majority of the drama which is vindication of God's sovereignty is in prophecy.  You are right the Rev prophecies are not salvation issue but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discern it, at the same time i'm well aware of this verse believe it or not, "Do not all interpretations belong to God"(Genesis 40:

P.S. I know the context is about Joseph having a prophetic dream and only God can interpret it, still I think you can agree that all interpretations belong to God.

I don't like to teach prophecy unless someone has been given the Salvational message and they are saved. Prophecy does not save you, nor is needed for initial Salvation.  My post above is only to say that I know how you JW's like to stay in prophecy more than Salvation, and that makes me wonder why?  The great Commission is to take the Good News to the world of Salvation.

Joseph is not the only one who had a prophetic dream, Jacob did also, how about Daniel?  Peter on the roof?  Anyway, what does this have to do with what we are talking about?  This kind of throwing a bunch of thoughts and scriptures out that clearly have nothing to do with the subject being discussed is nothing but filling up a page and says nothing.

2.  "While I understand the 1,000 year reign of peace, that is NOT the new heaven and new earth.  There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace).  The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time."

what I agree with will be in bold below and  what I disagree with will be slashed out below!

1,000 year reign is not new heaven and new earth

There are still people left after the 7 year tribulation, and the beast is removed, and satan is bound for a thousand years (the 1,000 years of peace).

The redeemed that have been raptured, and those dead in Christ who rose to take part in the rapture, will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth at that time."

Jesus reigns in heaven not earth, "he said his kingdom is no part of this world"(John 18:36), also since all good people go to heaven(you believe it even though we agree God chooses who's good or not) your going to have MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people judging each other(1 Corinthians 6:1-3).

Here is a good example of picking scriptures at random and out of context like you have been doing all along.  In John 18:36 Jesus is answering Pilate.  Of course He is still on the earth, and this is before He was crucified.  READ the verses BEFORE and AFTER this verse and you will get the correct meaning.

Why are you quoting I Corinthians 6:1-3?  Paul is talking to the Corinthian church and admonishing them to not go to the legal system to sue or conduct a legal matter with his brother in the Lord.  He mentions that we will someday judge angels after this life.

Why do you take scriptures at random and post them when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand?  I've said this before, and will not discuss anything else with you unless you can properly stay at the topic at hand.  Just because you can pick a scripture out here and there, doesn't mean it's pertinent to the subject.  Or maybe you are just trying to fill up a lot of space to look like you know something.  You cannot take a scripture out of context because it may have a word that relates to the subject.  It could mean something totally different according to the context and Hebrew or Greek definitions of which it is being used.

I also believe that the ones who will be resurrected during Christs presence are some of the 144K who died before he came. So that's what  believe the rapture is.

I know you do.....I do not.....difference of opinion and how we interpret the scriptures.

3. You have a lot of time periods and dispensations running all together during one dispensation.  However, prophecy is interpreted through many time dispensations.  While some scriptures have past, present, and future happenings in them, it does not mean that they are happening all at once.  God does not live in a time boundary as we do.  He is eternal.  According to Him, we are already raptured, and praising Him around the Throne, among other things. His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways.


I never said it's happening all at once, the sealing although happening now is not completed, obviously the resurrection and the binding of satan and the 1,000 years hasn't happened yet and is definitely not happening now etc.  We are already raptured? Let's just forget about then in fact why are you here instead of in heaven if your already raptured according to God   The Israelites back then and us today praise God in a place of worship but are we in literal heaven when we do that? A place that's made with hands and is of this creation? The greater tabernacle is not made with hands and of this creation(Hebrews 9:11)

Wow!! What?? Hebrews 9:11, is Paul again speaking about about the types and shadows of the Old Testament and how Christ has replaced the old ways of sacrifice, because he is the supreme sacrifice, and no more will there be the sacrifices of animals, etc.  Please do not pick and choose scripture unless you can use it in it's proper context!!  Christ is the tabernacle made without hands, the sacrifice Himself!!

4. The redeemed in the first resurrection (in the grave or alive) will reign with Christ during the 1,000 years of peace. They most certainlydo have duties and rewards given to them.  What I have noticed is you say nothing of the rapture.  Do you believe in such?

As I stated before I believe the resurrected on the first resurrection are the 144K that died before Christ came back. My point is the rewards and duties for those in the first resurrection are clearly heavenly, for the sake of clarity all the rewards and duties will be listed below starting from heavenly.

HEAVEN

1. Co-rule with Christ for 1,000 years(equal in authority)
2. Immortality
3. They become spirit creatures that are not flesh and bone just like Jesus
4. Live in heaven

EARTH

1. They are subject and is not spoken of as ruling with Jesus or judging people or angels etc.
2. They are some of the unrighteous resurrected during the second resurrection(Acts 24:15)
3. They are the ones building houses, having a land with occupy and working their hands to the full(Isaiah 65:20-25); Isaiah 66:1
4. They live on Earth

Huh?? this is answering my question above?  See what I mean by a lot of posting that has nothing to do with what the questions was?  However, the 144,000 is not the first resurrection.  Just something we disagree on.

5. Your hostility towards me is unfounded.  Only because I questioned your interpretation of Holy Scriptures? Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is.  You pick and choose a lot of scriptures and throw them out, but they have little or nothing to do with the subject or the dispensation being addressed.  Also, like I said before, prophecy (Revelations) is not the easiest to interpret.  However, scripture will interpret scripture, and you need the Holy Ghost to reveal certain portions of scripture through study.  I mentioned my Salvational born again experience according to scripture, but you have chosen to ignore that as well, when it is all together Biblical (Acts 2:38).

To be quite honest I don't see the hostility, I want you to question however it is frustrating when you try to explain something and it the person gets the explanation different or even backwards, this is probably my own downfall though, considering i'm terrible at communication.

The only way to interpret revelation is to use the bible from both parts to understand the visions and the symbols etc with study and God's spirit. All the scriptures I posted had to do with the born again ruling with Christ, resurrection and the multitude and that's what we have been talking about this whole time so what's the problem?

Yes, the born again will rule with Christ, however, they are 2 separate happenings.  Being "born again" is the Salvational experience.  Ruling with Christ is something all together.  You are mixing in Salvation and prophecy together, and that can be confusing to someone searching for Salvation. In fact, the Salvation must come in order to understand prophecy, or "rightly divide" it.

As for your being born again on a baptismal i'm not going to judge you on that, only God knows if your baptized with fire instead of water and possibly yourself. However many are baptized in the name of the father, son and holy spirit(Matthew 28:19).  Again if being baptized means that they all good people go to heaven then there's the issue of millions if not billions judging each other (1 Corinthians 6:1-3).

I'm baptized with water and fire both.  The NAME (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus!  I was baptized in Jesus Name.  Not the "titles" of Father, Son, Holy Ghost.  (Acts 2:38)  As far as the rest of your post above, I have already addressed I Corinthians 6:1-3 above.  Again, you took it out of context, with the Salvational question I asked you.

6. WHAT?  Ancient Israel didn't praise God with singing?  You need to go back and read the Old Testament.  The singers and musicians were appointed to do just that in the temple in the wilderness.  Even before that!  The singers and musicians a lot of times went before the Ark with singing and praising God.

Your right there was a select group of singers and musicians appointed to sing and play music, however other then the Exodus song I don't recall Israel as a whole playing instruments or singing, i'm humbly willing to admit i'm wrong though and it's nice to see you reading the old covenant it should be emphasized more, I also said MOST not ALL!!

Do you have a Concordance?  There are literally hundreds of scripture with the words sing, singers, singing, music, worship, etc., unto the Lord (just in the Old Testament).

Yes, interpretation comes through and from God, because it is His, and whoever He wants to reveal it to.  Here's one of my favorite scriptures:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.  II timothy 2:15

When you study out "rightly dividing" in the old Greek: (3718) It means "to dissect or expound" correctly the divine message. It's very important when using scripture, that it is used in it's proper context and not just thrown out there, for the sake of filling up space.

We interpret the scriptures differently according to prophecy and probably Salvation also.  I'm going to leave it at that and wish you a good day.  I no longer want to answer scripture that has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing, or scripture thrown out for no reason, except to throw it out.  It's line upon line, here a little, there a little. While the whole Bible must be taken into account when studying out a question, it is not to be used for anything but what it is intended for.....the saving of mankind.

I could no more tell you what the 3rd toe on the beast means (joke) than anything, because it doesn't concern me how I will make it to Heaven.  While I know JW's like to delve into the prophetic musings, it's not pertinent to the plan of Salvation.  A lot of what is a mystery will only be revealed when we get there.  Do I care about the streets of gold, mansions, etc......no!  I want to see Jesus, the one who died for me, and cleansed me from sin, and paid my debt that I could not pay.  The one I love with all my heart, and whom I serve. While prophecy is interesting to study out at times, it is not the great commission and Revelations does not have the plan of Salvation.

[jcribb16]

Poor attempt at humor...

You know jcribb, you did a huge logic fail in here awhile back, and I posted something calling you on it that could be described as "mean" because I was frustrated with your loose train of thought.  But I deleted it before you could read it, realizing you would never see the err of your ways, anyway, and not wanting to ruin anyone's day over minds that will never change.  But here you are, getting your scolds in every chance you get (this is just one of many examples).  My opinion of you has progressively lowered the more you've mirrored Annella, a woman who has not deserved the continual defense you provide on her part.  I have no desire to deal with two Annellas.  

Queenofnines, it doesn't really bother me about your opinion - you come in with little remarks (like you did between Annella and teflonfanatic) when you aren't even in the middle of their discussion, except to make those kind of remarks.  I made a remark back.  So, it's ok for you to make remarks to others opposite of your views, apparently, but it's not okay for me to do the same in return.  At least my remark took your attention off of them so they could continue their discussion. 

I've told you before, I enjoyed sparring with you when I was new on here - you were excellent at discussing the opposite views with me, and with others. But when things really got heated and more newbies came in, you became more sarcastic and demeaning.  That's when I wondered what was happening to cause that.  I got to a point where enough was enough so I responded in "like" because that seemed to be the only way to talk with you.  I started taking up for newbies and other Christians because of the way you were treating them.

It sure would be nice to get back to where we were because you had some good points on issues and accepted points on my issues.  We sparked, yes, but that was normal.  Now, it's like if I don't see your view, period, then I should forget it and hit the highway. The only thing is, I'm not going to hide in the background and be a chicken.  I enjoy debating, even with you when you debate and not demean, and if you join in just to stir the pot to pick at someone when they are involved in a serious conversation, then you take the chance of people coming back at you, either in their own defense, or someone defending them. That's what I did.

[mstachitus]

I've been reading up on some of the stuff that has been posted here, and there are a lot of topics that you are dealing with.  I kind of want to butt in and get my two cents in.

I first want to comment about the First Resurrection, as apposed to the Second Resurrection.  The First Resurrection, as we can all agree, refers to the resurrection of the righteous who died in Christ; those who were redeemed through the blood of the Lamb.  The second is the resurrection of the unjust, or the wicked.  The first resurrection is not a set time period, and actually began with the resurrection of Jesus Christ and continues to this day.

Matthew 27:52-53- Shows that many of the saints arose from the dead and appeared unto many.  Clearly these saints were part of the First Resurrection.  Don't worry, it's not past.  It continues until the ushering in of Christ's thousand year reign on Earth, and through it until the thousand years are up.  Then the resurrection of the wicked begin.

Resurrection is a gift that God has given to ALL mankind (John 5:28-29 & Acts 14:15), but there are different degrees of glory that man will receive in their resurrection, according to their works on earth:

1 Corinthians 15:39-42 - Says that all flesh is not the same; there are bodies celestial and terrestrial.  The glory of individuals at the resurrection will differ as the glory of the sun, moon, and stars differ from each other.

It certainly makes sense that all mankind will not be raised from the dead with equal glory.  Clearly there are levels of devotion to God, ranging from the sinner who murders and plunders, to the completely penitent saint.  Since ALL mankind will be resurrected, there must be different levels of resurrection.

2 Corinthians 12:2 - Makes a reference to a "third heaven".  This is Paul speaking of when Christ appeared to him after he was risen from the dead.  This shows the existence of at least 3 Heavens (Sun, Moon, Stars ?).

I'll repeat what I said in another topic, that I think heaven is more a state of being, rather than a physical place.  Therefore, when we think of 3 heavens, we should think of the fact that there will be three major divisions in the glory taken up by the human race at their resurrection, all predicated upon their faithfulness.

[Falconer02]

Everybody has a choice.  Choose this day who you will serve.

If you want people to live the way you think they should live, you can't substitute your little black+white superstitious threat for evidence that it's correct.

[Annella]

Everybody has a choice.  Choose this day who you will serve.

If you want people to live the way you think they should live, you can't substitute your little black+white superstitious threat for evidence that it's correct.

My "threat' as you call it isn't mine at all. I don't substitute a thing when it comes to the Word of God. And the way people should live is by the laws of God, not by how I think they should live.  However, the "superstitious" shoe is on your foot is it not? 

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and they seed may live.

[Falconer02]

My "threat' as you call it isn't mine at all. I don't substitute a thing when it comes to the Word of God. And the way people should live is by the laws of God, not by how I think they should live.  However, the "superstitious" shoe is on your foot is it not?

No, that would still be you as you're tossing around and supporting a mythological threat. That is pretty much the definition of a superstition. I'm not superstitious in that manner at all, but nice try trying to pin it on me. I just find it extremely rude to curse those who don't follow the same beliefs you do. Call it your "mission from god" to inform people, it's still naive and unnecessary if you have no viable/universal proof for it. If people want to learn more about your viewpoint/beliefs, you should stay away from that approach altogether. Think outside your box and of the other ends of the spectrum. Not what just solely works for you.

[Annella]

My "threat' as you call it isn't mine at all. I don't substitute a thing when it comes to the Word of God. And the way people should live is by the laws of God, not by how I think they should live.  However, the "superstitious" shoe is on your foot is it not?

No, that would still be you as you're tossing around and supporting a mythological threat. That is pretty much the definition of a superstition. I'm not superstitious in that manner at all, but nice try trying to pin it on me. I just find it extremely rude to curse those who don't follow the same beliefs you do. Call it your "mission from god" to inform people, it's still naive and unnecessary if you have no viable/universal proof for it. If people want to learn more about your viewpoint/beliefs, you should stay away from that approach altogether. Think outside your box and of the other ends of the spectrum. Not what just solely works for you.

Uh, is it me cursing, or the Word of God?  You have a real problem projecting your anger at God on me, when all I am is the messenger.  However, whatever rudeness you find in all of this, is fabricated, and accusatory.  As far as my approach? I use the Word of God......that's what you don't like.  What you call naive and unnecessary, is my life's calling. 

As far as thinking outside the box, just what would be acceptable to you?  Saying that this is all a fairy tale?  No can do. Not now, or ever.  In other words, if I said nothing at all, that would be acceptable to you?  If I didn't respond to any post to me, that would be acceptable?  If I didn't use scripture in my posts, that would be acceptable?  You see where this is going?  Don't say this, don't say that, use a different approach, etc. etc.  Since when do you command the dictates of my heart, mind, or beliefs?  You don't!

Uh, works for me?  I don't twist the Word of God to work for me.  It is what it is.....Truth!  You are just like every other unbeliever.  You stand with your hands over your ears chanting: Prove it. Prove it. Prove it.  Who's naive?

[Falconer02]

Uh, is it me cursing, or the Word of God?  You have a real problem projecting your anger at God on me, when all I am is the messenger.  However, whatever rudeness you find in all of this, is fabricated, and accusatory.  As far as my approach? I use the Word of God......that's what you don't like.  What you call naive and unnecessary, is my life's calling.  

Despite the threads title, I find the willingness to use a curse as the forefront of an argument pretty annoying. This isn't some philosophical conundrum-- it's common decency. You can  decorate yourself as a messenger from god with a narrow message all you want. It's still a nuisance.

As far as thinking outside the box, just what would be acceptable to you?  Saying that this is all a fairy tale?  No can do. Not now, or ever.  In other words, if I said nothing at all, that would be acceptable to you?  If I didn't respond to any post to me, that would be acceptable?  If I didn't use scripture in my posts, that would be acceptable?  You see where this is going?  Don't say this, don't say that, use a different approach, etc. etc.

No. What would be acceptable? What would be a better approach? If you want my .02, I would start by realizing a lot of other people don't think the same old-fashioned way you do. Your reasonings and concepts of things are extremely black and white. Considering your mission, that approach does not run very far today.

Since when do you command the dictates of my heart, mind, or beliefs?  You don't!

"Whateva! Whateva! I do what I want!"
Did I say I did? This is what Jdog and the others keep talking about and why we get frustrated-- you take any small amount of question or advice and turn it into something it's not just to paint us as the bad guys.

Uh, works for me?  I don't twist the Word of God to work for me.  It is what it is.....Truth!

 

You are just like every other unbeliever.  You stand with your hands over your ears chanting: Prove it. Prove it. Prove it.  Who's naive?

You'd think it would be the person who solidly believes in Christian witchcraft rather than the person who's simply looking for answers realistically. But I guess that's not the case in your eyes.

[teflonfanatic]

This is a NICE and hopefully NOT DEBATIVE reply to ANNELA as usual my response to what you said is in the order you said them if it's not there I didn't have a response for it.

1.  I don't like to teach prophecy unless someone has been given the Salvational message and they are saved. Prophecy does not save you, nor is needed for initial Salvation.  My post above is only to say that I know how you JW's like to stay in prophecy more than Salvation, and that makes me wonder why?  The great Commission is to take the Good News to the world of Salvation.

Annela this is a classic case of misapplying what I said. I never said prophecy saves us I said "should we not discern it".  As for the JW's not taken up the good news I disagree but i'll let you have your opinion. Although not needed for salvation is still faith strengthening to read about them just like most if not all things written in the bible. Should I hold on to only salvation scriptures and throw out the other few thousand scriptures?

2.  Joseph is not the only one who had a prophetic dream, Jacob did also, how about Daniel?  Peter on the roof?  Anyway, what does this have to do with what we are talking about?  This kind of throwing a bunch of thoughts and scriptures out that clearly have nothing to do with the subject being discussed is nothing but filling up a page and says nothing.

Annela this is a classic case of misapplying what I said again. I never said Joseph was the only one able to have prophetic dreams I only posted that tidbit in the P.S. section because you always say I misapply scripture or say I didn't know the account, for the record no one is going to get the context right 100% when they post scripture, the people are different and the way of life is different etc. Just cause it's different doesn't mean the subject or the counsel is wrong.

3.  Here is a good example of picking scriptures at random and out of context like you have been doing all along.  In John 18:36 Jesus is answering Pilate.  Of course He is still on the earth, and this is before He was crucified.  READ the verses BEFORE and AFTER this verse and you will get the correct meaning.

So he was on earth talking to a ruler, his kingdom is still not earthly nor was he reigning as king before he died, the rulers made him out to be king before he died not Jesus.

4.  Why are you quoting I Corinthians 6:1-3?  Paul is talking to the Corinthian church and admonishing them to not go to the legal system to sue or conduct a legal matter with his brother in the Lord.  He mentions that we will someday judge angels after this life.

Correct, but you somehow miss the point that they will judge angels, and where are they going to judge the angels on Earth? Moreover if they judging them on Earth or Heaven what about the millions if not billions of people judging angels and themselves(they'll judge the world to verse 2)

5.  Why do you take scriptures at random and post them when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand?  I've said this before, and will not discuss anything else with you unless you can properly stay at the topic at hand.  Just because you can pick a scripture out here and there, doesn't mean it's pertinent to the subject.  Or maybe you are just trying to fill up a lot of space to look like you know something.  You cannot take a scripture out of context because it may have a word that relates to the subject.  It could mean something totally different according to the context and Hebrew or Greek definitions of which it is being used.

This is only true if it falls out of context with other scriptures and the scriptures i've posted have not fell out of context they all was on the same subject, people are living in different times and theres different generations of people etc you act like i'm taking a verse about a ritual and turning it into proof that Israelites were engaged in witchcraft or something.  Many trinitarian proof texts fall out of context but it's not wrong to stitch them together is it?

6. I  know you do.....I do not.....difference of opinion and how we interpret the scriptures.

Probably not necessary but i'll agree to disagree with you and leave the thessalionians scripture out of this.

7.  Wow!! What?? Hebrews 9:11, is Paul again speaking about about the types and shadows of the Old Testament and how Christ has replaced the old ways of sacrifice, because he is the supreme sacrifice, and no more will there be the sacrifices of animals, etc.  Please do not pick and choose scripture unless you can use it in it's proper context!!  Christ is the tabernacle made without hands, the sacrifice Himself!!



Please don't take this the wrong way but are you saying Christ came through himself?   Though your right about the context accept that last bit and yes I knew that Israelites sacrifices and service was all a foreshadowing. Anyway is the verse below talking about Jesus passing through himself or a greater place of worship?

Hebrews 9:11 reads 11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,

8.  Yes, the born again will rule with Christ, however, they are 2 separate happenings.  Being "born again" is the Salvational experience.  Ruling with Christ is something all together.  You are mixing in Salvation and prophecy together, and that can be confusing to someone searching for Salvation. In fact, the Salvation must come in order to understand prophecy, or "rightly divide" it.  

The problem is only anointed ones are said to be ruling with Christ in the bible.  I also don't see being born again as a salvational issue unless you want to be running the kingdom and not subject. I see you want to run the kingdom so I can see why it's a salvation issue for you, seriously though you do see anything wrong with millions if not billions of people co-ruling with according to you the second person in the trinity, that's equality to the almighty!!!!!!!!!!

9.  Do you have a Concordance?  There are literally hundreds of scripture with the words sing, singers, singing, music, worship, etc., unto the Lord (just in the Old Testament).

Agreed with all these statements and yes all of them did worship God, but to say all of them was in charge of music and singing is stretching it. This is almost like saying all of them were priests and kings.

10.  When you study out "rightly dividing" in the old Greek: (3718) It means "to dissect or expound" correctly the divine message. It's very important when using scripture, that it is used in it's proper context and not just thrown out there, for the sake of filling up space.

The problem is the verses i'm using are in harmony with the rest of the bible not just some parts. Your reading into my explanations as misquoting the bible.

[Annella]

This is a NICE and hopefully NOT DEBATIVE reply to ANNELA as usual my response to what you said is in the order you said them if it's not there I didn't have a response for it.

1.  I don't like to teach prophecy unless someone has been given the Salvational message and they are saved. Prophecy does not save you, nor is needed for initial Salvation.  My post above is only to say that I know how you JW's like to stay in prophecy more than Salvation, and that makes me wonder why?  The great Commission is to take the Good News to the world of Salvation.

Annela this is a classic case of misapplying what I said. I never said prophecy saves us I said "should we not discern it".  As for the JW's not taken up the good news I disagree but i'll let you have your opinion. Although not needed for salvation is still faith strengthening to read about them just like most if not all things written in the bible. Should I hold on to only salvation scriptures and throw out the other few thousand scriptures?

2.  Joseph is not the only one who had a prophetic dream, Jacob did also, how about Daniel?  Peter on the roof?  Anyway, what does this have to do with what we are talking about?  This kind of throwing a bunch of thoughts and scriptures out that clearly have nothing to do with the subject being discussed is nothing but filling up a page and says nothing.

Annela this is a classic case of misapplying what I said again. I never said Joseph was the only one able to have prophetic dreams I only posted that tidbit in the P.S. section because you always say I misapply scripture or say I didn't know the account, for the record no one is going to get the context right 100% when they post scripture, the people are different and the way of life is different etc. Just cause it's different doesn't mean the subject or the counsel is wrong.

3.  Here is a good example of picking scriptures at random and out of context like you have been doing all along.  In John 18:36 Jesus is answering Pilate.  Of course He is still on the earth, and this is before He was crucified.  READ the verses BEFORE and AFTER this verse and you will get the correct meaning.

So he was on earth talking to a ruler, his kingdom is still not earthly nor was he reigning as king before he died, the rulers made him out to be king before he died not Jesus.

4.  Why are you quoting I Corinthians 6:1-3?  Paul is talking to the Corinthian church and admonishing them to not go to the legal system to sue or conduct a legal matter with his brother in the Lord.  He mentions that we will someday judge angels after this life.

Correct, but you somehow miss the point that they will judge angels, and where are they going to judge the angels on Earth? Moreover if they judging them on Earth or Heaven what about the millions if not billions of people judging angels and themselves(they'll judge the world to verse 2)

5.  Why do you take scriptures at random and post them when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand?  I've said this before, and will not discuss anything else with you unless you can properly stay at the topic at hand.  Just because you can pick a scripture out here and there, doesn't mean it's pertinent to the subject.  Or maybe you are just trying to fill up a lot of space to look like you know something.  You cannot take a scripture out of context because it may have a word that relates to the subject.  It could mean something totally different according to the context and Hebrew or Greek definitions of which it is being used.

This is only true if it falls out of context with other scriptures and the scriptures i've posted have not fell out of context they all was on the same subject, people are living in different times and theres different generations of people etc you act like i'm taking a verse about a ritual and turning it into proof that Israelites were engaged in witchcraft or something.  Many trinitarian proof texts fall out of context but it's not wrong to stitch them together is it?

6. I  know you do.....I do not.....difference of opinion and how we interpret the scriptures.

Probably not necessary but i'll agree to disagree with you and leave the thessalionians scripture out of this.

7.  Wow!! What?? Hebrews 9:11, is Paul again speaking about about the types and shadows of the Old Testament and how Christ has replaced the old ways of sacrifice, because he is the supreme sacrifice, and no more will there be the sacrifices of animals, etc.  Please do not pick and choose scripture unless you can use it in it's proper context!!  Christ is the tabernacle made without hands, the sacrifice Himself!!



Please don't take this the wrong way but are you saying Christ came through himself?   Though your right about the context accept that last bit and yes I knew that Israelites sacrifices and service was all a foreshadowing. Anyway is the verse below talking about Jesus passing through himself or a greater place of worship?

Hebrews 9:11 reads 11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,

8.  Yes, the born again will rule with Christ, however, they are 2 separate happenings.  Being "born again" is the Salvational experience.  Ruling with Christ is something all together.  You are mixing in Salvation and prophecy together, and that can be confusing to someone searching for Salvation. In fact, the Salvation must come in order to understand prophecy, or "rightly divide" it.  

The problem is only anointed ones are said to be ruling with Christ in the bible.  I also don't see being born again as a salvational issue unless you want to be running the kingdom and not subject. I see you want to run the kingdom so I can see why it's a salvation issue for you, seriously though you do see anything wrong with millions if not billions of people co-ruling with according to you the second person in the trinity, that's equality to the almighty!!!!!!!!!!

9.  Do you have a Concordance?  There are literally hundreds of scripture with the words sing, singers, singing, music, worship, etc., unto the Lord (just in the Old Testament).



10.  When you study out "rightly dividing" in the old Greek: (3718) It means "to dissect or expound" correctly the divine message. It's very important when using scripture, that it is used in it's proper context and not just thrown out there, for the sake of filling up space.

The problem is the verses i'm using are in harmony with the rest of the bible not just some parts. Your reading into my explanations as misquoting the bible.

No, not misquoting the Bible, but certainly out of context, or picking and choosing scriptures to make a point that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.  Here is a good example:

Agreed with all these statements and yes all of them did worship God, but to say all of them was in charge of music and singing is stretching it. This is almost like saying all of them were priests and kings.

No, I never said ALL of them were in CHARGE of music and singing, however, they all worshipped God in music and worshiped with singing.  You are now nitpicking what I said and trying to twist it around.

You are taking portions of scripture and my posts and mixing them up where they are nothing but confusing facts, and the confusing way you interpret.

To be honest with you teflonfanatic, you and I wholly disagree about the scriptures and their interpretation.  I noticed this in the last thread we were both on also.  I'm going to disagree with you and that's it. 

I'd advise you to go back and read what you have posted and how utterly confusing it sounds, and how you have so many things mixed into the thread that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.  You throw in a few things that sound familiar or some familiar scripture, but then go off into I don't know what.  You can't seem to stay on subject without throwing interpretations out about scripture that is so off the wall.

Being born again is not a Salvational issue?  Being born again IS Salvation.

I have no desire to debate you further.......I'm done.

[Annella]

Uh, is it me cursing, or the Word of God?  You have a real problem projecting your anger at God on me, when all I am is the messenger.  However, whatever rudeness you find in all of this, is fabricated, and accusatory.  As far as my approach? I use the Word of God......that's what you don't like.  What you call naive and unnecessary, is my life's calling.  

Despite the threads title, I find the willingness to use a curse as the forefront of an argument pretty annoying. This isn't some philosophical conundrum-- it's common decency. You can  decorate yourself as a messenger from god with a narrow message all you want. It's still a nuisance.

As far as thinking outside the box, just what would be acceptable to you?  Saying that this is all a fairy tale?  No can do. Not now, or ever.  In other words, if I said nothing at all, that would be acceptable to you?  If I didn't respond to any post to me, that would be acceptable?  If I didn't use scripture in my posts, that would be acceptable?  You see where this is going?  Don't say this, don't say that, use a different approach, etc. etc.

No. What would be acceptable? What would be a better approach? If you want my .02, I would start by realizing a lot of other people don't think the same old-fashioned way you do. Your reasonings and concepts of things are extremely black and white. Considering your mission, that approach does not run very far today.

Since when do you command the dictates of my heart, mind, or beliefs?  You don't!

"Whateva! Whateva! I do what I want!"
Did I say I did? This is what Jdog and the others keep talking about and why we get frustrated-- you take any small amount of question or advice and turn it into something it's not just to paint us as the bad guys.

Uh, works for me?  I don't twist the Word of God to work for me.  It is what it is.....Truth!

 

You are just like every other unbeliever.  You stand with your hands over your ears chanting: Prove it. Prove it. Prove it.  Who's naive?

You'd think it would be the person who solidly believes in Christian witchcraft rather than the person who's simply looking for answers realistically. But I guess that's not the case in your eyes.

I really could care less what you deem annoying or a nuisance, when I'm bearing witness to the Holy Scriptures.  I did not curse so get off the cursing bit.  Can't you read the posts correctly?

falconer, you are not looking for answers so get off the finger pointing and accusation that I'm not doing my mission according to your specs.  You have said you don't believe.  Not you or anybody tells me how to go about my Father's business, except my Father!

The Bible is black and white, yea or nay.  Your frustration is unfounded because all I'm doing is living what preach. It won't change.

You just insulted my Christianity, and called it witchcraft.  That was pretty low.  You are mean.