I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[Falconer02]

respectfully disagree with you about the "chance" part. I support the Designer/Creator.  Chance cannot make the beginnings of the world in such an organized way..

This is an uneducated opinion on things then. That's far from proof. All you've posted are lazy watchmaker arguments that don't add up. No offense, but it's getting kind of redundant.

Our argument(s) in a nutshell-

"There's a god because this is complex! Look at Exhibit A!"
"Exhibit A could have formed naturally because of these reasons and these visual proofs."
"There's a god because Exhibit B is wrong and has a few holes! This proves there's a god!"
"Granted B has some problems, the amount of evidence outweighs it being completely fallicious. That, and I don't think you understand the concept that well. Here's an example of how it actually works."
"Well...there's a god because THIS is complex! Look at Exhibit C!"
"The probability of C forming naturally is within realistic limits considering the amount of matter, space, and time. The chances are not as large as you think they are. We just can't conceptualize it because we're not used to dealing with these large numbers. Look into the universe for visual proof."
"Well...then...there's a god because I think there is!"

[jcribb16]

Quote from jcribb:
respectfully disagree with you about the "chance" part. I support the Designer/Creator.  Chance cannot make the beginnings of the world in such an organized way..

Quote from Falconer:
This is an uneducated opinion on things then. That's far from proof. All you've posted are lazy watchmaker arguments that don't add up. No offense, but it's getting kind of redundant.

Yes, it's "getting kind of redundant."  We will always go in circles.  Back to my very first questions:
** Do you agree or disagree that whatever began to exist had a cause for its coming into being?
** Do you agree or disagree that the universe began to exist?

You never gave a clear answer to question one.  You "rode the fence" without a clear and concise yes or no. If the universe didn't have a cause, then why come in the first place?  Why have a design and order of the universe?  It's because there is the alternative to Evolution, that it was created by a designer. According to God's Word, it was Him.

Then I would like to remind you, that the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.

The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer.  You can keep explaining it away and/or rationalizing this, but it does NOT prove that there is NOT a creator/designer.

So, until you can prove, beyond a shadow and a doubt, that there is NO God, and proof that this world was NOT created by God, the great Designer/Creator, then I maintain my position that God is real and He created the universe.  He, ultimately, used "science", if you will, to produce this world, and provided the way for future scientists to explore and experiment.  Scientists are doing an amazing work out there. But it doesn't mean that Evolution was/is the answer.

[Annella]

To Amy:  Makes me wonder what you meant by your glad that jordandog and I are back on.  Since we NEVER agreed on anything, and there was much discontent with being called a *bleep*, etc.  Is it because it's fun to watch this negative discord between 2 people?  I would question why you would think that is a good thing?  Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not here for cheap entertainment.

You (Annella) take a simple "Hello" from Amy to each of us and turn it into this?! By the way and for the record, we have agreed on things. You forget that, just like you forget that not every word said to you has some hidden and underlying meaning. I NEVER called you a *bleep*, I said you were in "*bleep* mode" and I will say you are once again. The above really bothered me and NOT because of what you said about me, but because you directed your venom at Amy for no reason. You have to have the last word on everything with everyone. It is apparent here, apparent on some Off Topic threads with others. If this is how a woman of god acts, I pity the people you minister to. I suppose you are compassionate with them until there is something they say that means they are 'out to get you' too? Where did Amy say that you had done this ie made public things said to you? - "What have you confided in me that I've not kept said confidence?"

You really need to get a grip on things and stop reading what isn't written and start reading what is. I have not hidden who I am, have always been real on here, good or bad. You seem to go with whatever direction your paranoia takes you and that has NOTHING to do with your beliefs because I am not putting that into the equation here. You see something that isn't, no matter what the topic happens to be.

Whatever.................Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me jordandog.  I apologized to Amy.  She can accept it or no. I believe the "confidential" statement was in reference what Amy and I have shared outside of this forum, which has nothing to do with you. 

[Falconer02]

You never gave a clear answer to question one.  You "rode the fence" without a clear and concise yes or no. If the universe didn't have a cause, then why come in the first place?  Why have a design and order of the universe?  It's because there is the alternative to Evolution, that it was created by a designer. According to God's Word, it was Him.

I can't answer your question because you're presenting question 1 as a false dilemma. This is not a black or white question. I really don't have to go any further then that.

Then I would like to remind you, that the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.

You have failed at explaining it with all those constant fallicious watchmaker examples. It's not provable. Again, this is a false dilemma. Because I have the humility to say that I might be wrong about some things does not necessitate that your personal deity exists. Especially because your god originally stemmed from sun worship. It's a lame argument from the get-go since it begins with mythology. Reality is the graveyard of the gods.

The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer.  You can keep explaining it away and/or rationalizing this, but it does NOT prove that there is NOT a creator/designer.

Seeing this again and again...your side is taking ignorance to a new level. It's not going in circles-- you just keep trying to add to it, but can't. I highly doubt you understand much of what has been posted since you just keep going with the watchmaker approach. The burden of proof is on you, and you've constantly failed at the whole proof thing-- the thing I asked for. The concept, design, and details of our world are not perfectly fit for all species including ourselves. Over 75% of the water on this ball is not drinkable unless processed. Only 10% of the land is in excellent shape to be arable. We've explained why with REAL things. We've explained why your examples are fallicious and that this god you speak of is a pretty sloppy and uncaring designer, and all you present are watchmaker arguments. It's not proof. It's getting to be highly delusional.

So, until you can prove, beyond a shadow and a doubt, that there is NO God, and proof that this world was NOT created by God, the great Designer/Creator, then I maintain my position that God is real and He created the universe.  He, ultimately, used "science", if you will, to produce this world, and provided the way for future scientists to explore and experiment.  Scientists are doing an amazing work out there. But it doesn't mean that Evolution was/is the answer.

I never said I could disprove it, did I? That would be neat if there was some cosmic metaphysical supernatural being or beings out there! But your specific god? Please. It's absolutely ridiculous reasoning you're trying to assert. You even address it with a gender.

Scientists are doing an amazing work out there. But it doesn't mean that Evolution was/is the answer.

Evolution has been proven. But what did you mean by 'answer'?

[jcribb16]

Falconer,

What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here.  I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you.  When you refute, it's not just me - you are putting yourself above these professionals. You have started putting your "delusional", "watchmaking approach", etc. also as part of your disagreement. I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous.  Maybe I should just do the same.  However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far. The readers in this thread have their own opinions about what they believe.  They can read what you and I wrote and either back their opinions of what they believe or question one way or the other.

At least I'm trying to present a viable argument here as nice as I can, to back up what I feel about something. If you think it's delusional, fine. I'll keep my "delusional" beliefs in what I feel is right. When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place.  We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later.  Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says. 

[Annella]

Falconer,

What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here.  I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you.  When you refute, it's not just me - you are putting yourself above these professionals. You have started putting your "delusional", "watchmaking approach", etc. also as part of your disagreement. I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous.  Maybe I should just do the same.  However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far. The readers in this thread have their own opinions about what they believe.  They can read what you and I wrote and either back their opinions of what they believe or question one way or the other.

At least I'm trying to present a viable argument here as nice as I can, to back up what I feel about something. If you think it's delusional, fine. I'll keep my "delusional" beliefs in what I feel is right. When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place.  We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later.  Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says. 

Isn't it funny that our delusional beliefs are actually coming to pass, and being fulfilled today.  Like you said Jcribb, all the puzzle pieces will fall into place, and are falling into place.  You did good, and went way beyond long suffering and steadfastness.  In the end, you have to turn them over to what they want to believe.  They are going to anyway.  It doesn't make the sadness any more palatable, but you fought the good fight.

[jcribb16]

Falconer,

What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here.  I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you.  When you refute, it's not just me - you are putting yourself above these professionals. You have started putting your "delusional", "watchmaking approach", etc. also as part of your disagreement. I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous.  Maybe I should just do the same.  However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far. The readers in this thread have their own opinions about what they believe.  They can read what you and I wrote and either back their opinions of what they believe or question one way or the other.

At least I'm trying to present a viable argument here as nice as I can, to back up what I feel about something. If you think it's delusional, fine. I'll keep my "delusional" beliefs in what I feel is right. When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place.  We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later.  Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says. 

Isn't it funny that our delusional beliefs are actually coming to pass, and being fulfilled today.  Like you said Jcribb, all the puzzle pieces will fall into place, and are falling into place.  You did good, and went way beyond long suffering and steadfastness.  In the end, you have to turn them over to what they want to believe.  They are going to anyway.  It doesn't make the sadness any more palatable, but you fought the good fight.

Thank you, Annella.  That means a lot. 

[Falconer02]

What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here.

Realistically, you really didn't offer anything. Just some vague analogies with some open-ended examples.

I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you.

From creationist sources, which I have pointed out that they skew the information ridiculously or just don't know what they're talking about. Any professor or scientist that's going to use a watchmaker approach is just wading in self deception. Unfortunately the ones I see preaching this are all religious.

I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous.

Can you use these names against me though? Or has Satan deluded me for educating myself on how mystical thinking is false?

However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far

And I don't intend to press your button! Sorry if it seems like I am. These are really the only words I can use as they match the description of what's being presented. If they're far too harsh, I'll try finding others. No prob.

When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place.  We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later.  Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says.

Queen will have a field day with this one. I'm too famished to write a few paragraphs though. I may later. Let me just put it to you this way through an example and some soulless internet copy/pasting-

"A man living in NYC was always claiming that terrorists were going to hit NYC big. Then September 11 happened. Therefore he is a prophet."
I think you can see the problem here.

For a prophecy to be credible, it needs to:

1) Be time-bound. Give a deadline for the prediction to come true or not happen. Otherwise, you can simply say it hasn't happened yet.

2) Predict a highly unusual event. Saying something that has a 50% chance of occurring isn't that impressive. Even if it's 10%, it merely means that 1 out of 10 prophets are going to score by luck. This is not asking for too much - if you knew that 9/11 was going to happen, you can be really specific about a lot of details. e.g. You can give the exact number of people who would die. You can give the exact number of terrorists or you can give the exact numbers of the flights. Just saying that a big natural disaster will soon hit the USA is not impressive.

3) Make the prediction before the event. This is of course the very definition of a prophecy. You don't wait for the event to happen, and then claim to have predicted it. You predict first and not modify it thereafter.

4) Be clear and precise. Prophecies that are so vague as to be able to fit into any event are not impressive. You can't brag about being a sharpshooter if you're aiming for the ocean from a boat.

5) Be correct all the time. Prophecies from God are supposed to be 100% accurate. So if even one turns out to be wrong - and clumsy excuses made to explain it away or cover it up - then you know the source isn't divine. A prophet who guesses right sometimes and guesses wrong other times isn't a prophet. We can all do that ourselves.

Do we create our reality and the things within it from our fantasy and fictional ideas? Many of the events and things created in this world could be done a million other ways..cars could look differently, planes could look different, we have shaped much of this world not completely in how it must be but in how our imaginations perceived it to be. This also applies to prophecy..did the event happen because the prohecy was true or did the prophecy come true because people made it?

The fact is that revelations (being mostly inspired by mushrooms)is so symbolic that it could really mean a lot of different things and for someone to take one thing like chip implants and associate it with the whole number of the beast thing and say that is a fulfilled prophecy is really stretching it.

Now, if you wish, please share some of the Book of Revelations prophecies if they meet these requirements.



Edit:

In the end, you have to turn them over to what they want to believe.  They are going to anyway.  It doesn't make the sadness any more palatable, but you fought the good fight.

Says the lady who thinks faith healing is authentic and flatout lied about Jdog's research.

[jcribb16]

Falconer,
I don't wish to share anything with you until you at least read the Book of Revelation. You can't discuss what you don't know. If you have read it, then you already know of the prophecies.  Isaiah is another book with prophecies.

I've had it with your condescending remarks. I presented my side, you refuted it, and made yourself look one-sided with your "lazy watchmaker, etc." comments. It started out cordial, but you just couldn't hold back those remarks.

In regards to "Queen will have a field day with this one." I don't care to join her in her field day.  I've had enough of her nonsensical cut-downs and cut-offs.  It will do no one any good arguing with attitudes.

[Falconer02]

Falconer,
I don't wish to share anything with you until you at least read the Book of Revelation. You can't discuss what you don't know. If you have read it, then you already know of the prophecies.  Isaiah is another book with prophecies.

A legitimate request I suppose. For the record, I have actually read it. The problem is that it was when I was 12, so unfortunately I don't remember much of it. But I do remember it being very vague. I remember my mom explaining it to me and even then my words had a lot of "but"s in them. I also recall Teflonfanatic quoting many of the prophecies in the past, and they were very vague as well.

I've had it with your condescending remarks. I presented my side, you refuted it, and made yourself look one-sided with your "lazy watchmaker, etc." comments. It started out cordial, but you just couldn't hold back those remarks.

Lazy watchmaker = world is extremely imperfect. They call it the watchmaker argument because watches are so amazingly precise and work so perfectly, but our world is not like this. I wasn't calling YOU lazy! lol

In regards to "Queen will have a field day with this one." I don't care to join her in her field day.  I've had enough of her nonsensical cut-downs and cut-offs.  It will do no one any good arguing with attitudes.

Awwww  

[jddins]

evolution has NOT been proven.  neither has design, but it makes a whole lot more sense to me.

[Falconer02]

evolution has NOT been proven.

Yes it has. It's both fact and theory.

[Annella]

What I will say is that you, just like I said would happen, have refuted anything I have offered on here.

Realistically, you really didn't offer anything. Just some vague analogies with some open-ended examples.

I have used research from professors, scientists, Bible, science books, etc. to talk with you.

From creationist sources, which I have pointed out that they skew the information ridiculously or just don't know what they're talking about. Any professor or scientist that's going to use a watchmaker approach is just wading in self deception. Unfortunately the ones I see preaching this are all religious.

I haven't played the same name game, and it really seems as if you like to use those words as part of your wall of not wanting to consider what I'm saying could actually be true. It just appears that you are still trying to make my views look delusional, and ridiculous.

Can you use these names against me though? Or has Satan deluded me for educating myself on how mystical thinking is false?

However, I'm not made that way, unless my button is pushed too far

And I don't intend to press your button! Sorry if it seems like I am. These are really the only words I can use as they match the description of what's being presented. If they're far too harsh, I'll try finding others. No prob.

When the end time comes, all of the puzzle pieces will fall into place.  We'll all have our questions answered. The Book of Revelation goes deep into what has already happened, is happening even now, and what will happen later.  Strange, isn't it, how these things are happening just like it says.

Queen will have a field day with this one. I'm too famished to write a few paragraphs though. I may later. Let me just put it to you this way through an example and some soulless internet copy/pasting-

"A man living in NYC was always claiming that terrorists were going to hit NYC big. Then September 11 happened. Therefore he is a prophet."
I think you can see the problem here.

For a prophecy to be credible, it needs to:

1) Be time-bound. Give a deadline for the prediction to come true or not happen. Otherwise, you can simply say it hasn't happened yet.

2) Predict a highly unusual event. Saying something that has a 50% chance of occurring isn't that impressive. Even if it's 10%, it merely means that 1 out of 10 prophets are going to score by luck. This is not asking for too much - if you knew that 9/11 was going to happen, you can be really specific about a lot of details. e.g. You can give the exact number of people who would die. You can give the exact number of terrorists or you can give the exact numbers of the flights. Just saying that a big natural disaster will soon hit the USA is not impressive.

3) Make the prediction before the event. This is of course the very definition of a prophecy. You don't wait for the event to happen, and then claim to have predicted it. You predict first and not modify it thereafter.

4) Be clear and precise. Prophecies that are so vague as to be able to fit into any event are not impressive. You can't brag about being a sharpshooter if you're aiming for the ocean from a boat.

5) Be correct all the time. Prophecies from God are supposed to be 100% accurate. So if even one turns out to be wrong - and clumsy excuses made to explain it away or cover it up - then you know the source isn't divine. A prophet who guesses right sometimes and guesses wrong other times isn't a prophet. We can all do that ourselves.

Do we create our reality and the things within it from our fantasy and fictional ideas? Many of the events and things created in this world could be done a million other ways..cars could look differently, planes could look different, we have shaped much of this world not completely in how it must be but in how our imaginations perceived it to be. This also applies to prophecy..did the event happen because the prohecy was true or did the prophecy come true because people made it?

The fact is that revelations (being mostly inspired by mushrooms)is so symbolic that it could really mean a lot of different things and for someone to take one thing like chip implants and associate it with the whole number of the beast thing and say that is a fulfilled prophecy is really stretching it.

Now, if you wish, please share some of the Book of Revelations prophecies if they meet these requirements.



Edit:

In the end, you have to turn them over to what they want to believe.  They are going to anyway.  It doesn't make the sadness any more palatable, but you fought the good fight.

Says the lady who thinks faith healing is authentic and flatout lied about Jdog's research.

Just a minute there buster.........jdogs research...you mean on the trinity?  Answered with the same Bible she used to refute the Oneness of God.  Which is hilarious because she doesn't even believe in the Bible or God.

Or the fact that she just doesn't agree with miracle healing....not exactly research, even though she posted a lot of bulbous words that actually said nothing except that she didn't believe in it.  There is documentation in the medical community that lend proof to miracle healing.  What you want to do (with jdog) is try to explain those away with your attempt to cloud the issue with all your explanations of: well maybe they didn't actually have that disease, etc., etc.

Here's some prophetic writings.  Of course you won't believe it because it's Bible.  Anyway here goes.  I love these scriptures.

Revelations: 22:11-20

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches, I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.  And let him that heareth say. Come.  And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly.

Amen.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


He is coming, and He is the righteous Judge.  This prophecy will come true.

[jcribb16]

Quote from jcribb:
Falconer,
I don't wish to share anything with you until you at least read the Book of Revelation. You can't discuss what you don't know. If you have read it, then you already know of the prophecies.  Isaiah is another book with prophecies.

Quote from Falconer:
A legitimate request I suppose. For the record, I have actually read it. The problem is that it was when I was 12, so unfortunately I don't remember much of it. But I do remember it being very vague. I remember my mom explaining it to me and even then my words had a lot of "but"s in them. I also recall Teflonfanatic quoting many of the prophecies in the past, and they were very vague as well.

The Book of Revelation is anything but vague.  It's more chilling when a person reads about what has happened like the prophets said, what is happening, and what will happen.  From a 12 year old aspect, reading it would be quite different than reading it as an adult.  It also makes a huge difference to someone reading it as a nonfiction as compared to fiction. 

[Falconer02]

Just a minute there buster.........jdogs research...you mean on the trinity?

No-- the faith healing.

Or the fact that she just doesn't agree with miracle healing....not exactly research, even though she posted a lot of bulbous words that actually said nothing except that she didn't believe in it.  There is documentation in the medical community that lend proof to miracle healing.  What you want to do (with jdog) is try to explain those away with your attempt to cloud the issue with all your explanations of: well maybe they didn't actually have that disease, etc., etc.

There is no documentation in the medical community for saying faith healing is true. There are flukes, and that positive thinking does help, but that's about it. If miracle healing were true with truly-faithful christians, not one of them would be disabled or have any untreatable disease. Can you back up this claim? Because I've seen these disabled followers who still think this stuff is legit. And you're the one clouding the issue here because of your mysticism. Not me. I want support of your claim, and you have nothing that supasses any elementary skepticism.

Here's some prophetic writings.  Of course you won't believe it because it's Bible.  Anyway here goes.  I love these scriptures.

I don't think the bible is 100% fiction. There is some historical context in there that is quite interesting.

He is coming, and He is the righteous Judge.  This prophecy will come true.

How is this red text prophetic? I'd elaborate my position, but I'm afraid of the defensive curse at the end pointed to those who question it!

The Book of Revelation is anything but vague.  It's more chilling when a person reads about what has happened like the prophets said, what is happening, and what will happen.  From a 12 year old aspect, reading it would be quite different than reading it as an adult.  It also makes a huge difference to someone reading it as a nonfiction as compared to fiction.  

Well the whole age thing-- definitely. That goes without saying. But I've been reading a bit of it via http://www.revelationbibleprophecy.org/index.html and...I'm still not seeing anything here that supports any legitimate prophecy. All I really see here are vague examples involving beasts that are on par with Nostradamus's work. Sorry if it sounds like ridicule, but these could be interpreted as anything. What passages make you believe this; which ones stand out the most for you that have thick and unquestionable ties to actual events?