I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[jcribb16]

Quote from jcribb:
Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious. Opinion is what one feels or thinks about something, while fact is truth. That means that just because it is your opinion does not mean it is true.  It's my opinion that you and your good pal you mentioned are fallacious in cutting down Christians for what they believe and know about God.

Quote from Falconer:
1.) Your opinion of american buildings being proof of a deity being among us has been debunked due to historical significances of other cultures' creations with their deities being among them. This isn't an opinion. You asserted fallacious (omg got it rite) claim and we called you on it. Done.

2.) You don't know. You think you know. If you knew, you would be able to present and share the metaphysical properties with us. But you can't. You rely on a frail argument of "You don't need physical means to believe in what I preach". Yes, we get it. But it's ultimately a really weak argument --if an argument at all-- because it has no logical form. From the start, it's invalid.

1) Come now. I didn't say that American buildings were proof. I said that America's culture is intermingled with God, such as the money, buildings, courts (commandments), swearing in of officials. What you are really implying is that all of those things listed are based on a false god. If that were true, then these things would not be prominent. You are banging your head against the wall to no avail!    You've got to admit there must be something to God or none of it would be throughout America. Done. (P.S. Yes, you spelled it right! I don't worry about those kind of things, like qon does, because it's not the issue at hand.  Everyone makes mistakes.)

2) Sorry, but my argument is not weak and frail, nor invalid. It is backed by history events, our culture in general, and yep, God's Word, among other things. You don't have to accept it, that's your choice. Once again, I say "Faith is the answer to believing..."

[Annella]

Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious. Opinion is what one feels or thinks about something, while fact is truth. That means that just because it is your opinion does not mean it is true.  It's my opinion that you and your good pal you mentioned are fallacious in cutting down Christians for what they believe and know about God.

1.) Your opinion of american buildings being proof of a deity being among us has been debunked due to historical significances of other cultures' creations with their deities being among them. This isn't an opinion. You asserted fallacious (omg got it rite) claim and we called you on it. Done.

2.) You don't know. You think you know. If you knew, you would be able to present and share the metaphysical properties with us. But you can't. You rely on a frail argument of "You don't need physical means to believe in what I preach". Yes, we get it. But it's ultimately a really weak argument --if an argument at all-- because it has no logical form. From the start, it's invalid.

You have an opinion about what you see as Christians inconsistencies and faults in our belief?

No, it is not boxed reasonings.

It is only an opinion when put on the table with the deception of magic. Magical thinking in an argument should be prohibited because, with the impossible and unprovable, you can argue for anything and get away with it. It's a cop out. Kez has made some great and rational points on this.

. You guys are like a pack of snapping mutts ready to take down anyone that carries a Bible.

Nah. Just the ones with airhorns and megaphones! lol

I'm antagonizing you for no reason at all?  Oh, but what you do is just debate?  Another double standard.

I stay in the argument at hand. You stay on the outer rim of it and attack personally with name calling. But I vaguely recall you doing this before, so I should probably get used to it.

However, you degrade and bash my sister, you will hear from me. That's what's "up" with me.

I'll attack and degrade her arguments and reasonings and introduce something new into the mix if I see faults, but I will never degrade her actual self. Especially for no reason at all. That would be mean. If this is way too personal of an issue with anyone, they shouldn't even be in the argument. Feel free to argue against my beliefs any time you want. I won't take it personally. I'm not telling anyone to leave. I'm just stating that so they can avoid any emotional drama that sprouts up and they don't want to deal with.

You falconer just told the biggest lie.  I do not call anyone names, and haven't.  You and your pack have and do. We've been called names, degraded for even being Christians, week, delusional, brain dead, stupid, slimy, etc. Stay on the outer rim?  Oh no, this is not the outer rim.  Looks like I stepped right in the middle of it.  Your just mad because I called you on your below the belt tactics.  Get over it.

kez and I are discussing something totally different than what you and Jcribb are discussing so your effort to drag them in this is absurd.  Of course this is a public forum so they are welcome to add their 2 cents.

She can't explain "Faith" because it is something that is not seen.  You keep calling it mystical when in actuality it's the core of Christian living.  We can't explain it but say:  Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  It will never be something you can tangibly touch.

And you have gotten mean falconer, it makes me sad.

[jcribb16]

It's kind of like they are fearful of God and what it means in their personal life choices.

I can guarentee you we aren't fearful of any god out there. We're fearful of what the beliefs are doing to the real world. We've stated this various times. Take for instance Africa, the AIDS epidemic, and the Vatican. There's a big one. I'm not making an argument over this. I'm just correcting this mistake.

At least, the agitators are firm in what they believe.  However, we as Christians, are firm in what we believe.  It's like they are trying to forge chinks into the armor of God that we have around us, and get frustrated when we don't budge.

Because you don't attempt to answer the questions presented.

When you get down to it, it's not your concern about what my beliefs are doing to the real world. There are amazing people, both Christians and non-Christians who work together to help those countries, people, and issues. There are missionaries in countries that are doing so much to help people and children with their food and cleanliness issues, their education, their health, etc. Yes, they include God in their endeavor since that is what they are there for in the first place. So your argument is the weak one.

How in the world can you honestly say I don't attempt to answer the questions presented? Good grief, that's exactly what I've done, what more do you want!!!???!!!???  Maybe you should go back through this thread and actually try and "listen" to what I've been trying to say!!!!!!!!!!     You make no sense whatsoever.....

[jcribb16]

   I must go get some rest now. I have to get up in 4 hours for work.  "See" all of you tomorrow. Have a great day tomorrow!    

[jcribb16]

   Annella, I hope you are able to get some rest tonight.  Insomnia is not fun. It's great to "see" you in here!  Talk to you later, in here, hopefully, and our other means of communication.     

[Annella]

Goodbye my friend, I'm praying for your "air".  I'm off too.

[Falconer02]

1) Come now. I didn't say that American buildings were proof. I said that America's culture is intermingled with God, such as the money, buildings, courts (commandments), swearing in of officials. What you are really implying is that all of those things listed are based on a false god. If that were true, then these things would not be prominent. You are banging your head against the wall to no avail!    You've got to admit there must be something to God or none of it would be throughout America. Done. (P.S. Yes, you spelled it right! I don't worry about those kind of things, like qon does, because it's not the issue at hand.  Everyone makes mistakes.)

Right. Just like the Greeks and Romans. There's definitely something to all these popular deities through history or they wouldn't be plastered over everything. It's just popularity. What you feel towards your god is just as emotionally affluent to what the citizens of previous cultures felt about theirs. If I were to tell people in those times that in the future, their gods will be falsified and become household names, they'd probably say it's not true and take the exact same stance you have. Sometimes I wonder if one day we'll have "Yahweh Delivery Service" as the new FedEx or something.

Sorry, but my argument is not weak and frail, nor invalid. It is backed by history events, our culture in general, and yep, God's Word, among other things. You don't have to accept it, that's your choice. Once again, I say "Faith is the answer to believing..."

How in the world can you honestly say I don't attempt to answer the questions presented? Good grief, that's exactly what I've done, what more do you want!!!???!!!???  Maybe you should go back through this thread and actually try and "listen" to what I've been trying to say

I've already contested the historical event aspect and you hopped over it. I've also contested the legitimacy of your god's power and you hopped over it. Our culture in general has been shaped by many belief systems. Christianity has just been the prominent one because, like I've already stated, it was/is the most popular and it helped/helps people. Hey, that's cool. If it makes you happy, go for it. But considering cultures are a lot closer together than they were in the past, try to remember the *bleep* analogy I posted a few pages back  

When you get down to it, it's not your concern about what my beliefs are doing to the real world. There are amazing people, both Christians and non-Christians who work together to help those countries, people, and issues. There are missionaries in countries that are doing so much to help people and children with their food and cleanliness issues, their education, their health, etc. Yes, they include God in their endeavor since that is what they are there for in the first place. So your argument is the weak one.

Alright I'm willing to admit this is too much of a gray area to state anything. Personally I will say that I volunteer at a soup kitchen and at a humane society because I just want to help out and meet people. Not because some god commanded me to spread their word. I think intent is a key word in this whole thing.

[Falconer02]

You falconer just told the biggest lie.  I do not call anyone names, and haven't.

"nasty"
"arrogant"
"idiot"
"hateful"
"discontent"

We've been called names, degraded for even being Christians, week, delusional, brain dead, stupid, slimy, etc

We haven't called anyone names. Atleast I haven't and I don't recall anyone else. Delusional isn't a deragatory term if one uses it in the correct context (a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact). I have called the opposing reasonings a joke. I think that's all- I could be missing one or two. Everything was aimed at the argument the person is presenting- not the specific person.

kez and I are discussing something totally different than what you and Jcribb are discussing so your effort to drag them in this is absurd.  Of course this is a public forum so they are welcome to add their 2 cents.

Am I? Unless I'm mistaken, I just commended the interesting read.

She can't explain "Faith" because it is something that is not seen.  You keep calling it mystical when in actuality it's the core of Christian living.  We can't explain it but say:  Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  It will never be something you can tangibly touch.

I understand, but with everything that is being discussed here pertaining to the real world, religious faith looks more and more like self deception to those with aerial viewpoints who have been on the religious grounds before. If you're going to argue for something, faith isn't really a good card to pull since, like I stated earlier, it allows for the impossible. It destroys all legitimacy to an argument. And considering we keep arguing and we keep coming back to faith, this word keeps causing it to spiral round and round. It seems more of like a safe-zone the christians keep running back to rather than trying to find a decent answer.

And you have gotten mean falconer, it makes me sad.

I was going to brag about the pile of dead bodies behind me, buuuuut now maybe I shouldn't.

[kezalter]

No, I'm not making this about you. You made this about you by and saying well, well, well, I'm Jewish so I should know my history.

Your first post to me began with

If you don't believe the Bible kezalter, just say so.

So you made it about me from the start.  I brought up my background because your first tact was to say that I was posting things that would give Jewish posters here pause, and that I didn't study enough Jewish history.  Then after I defended myself you took the approach that I must be sexist and bigoted against Gentiles.  (That was how it came off to me but I suppose I could have misread it.)

you called the Bible fiction

Wrong.  I said that a couple of individual texts may be best read as historical fictions whereby their story and message is more important than their historical accuracy.  I brought this up because I was replying to "Everyone listed in there is in there for a reason" and the suggestion that it was because they historically existed.  I disputed this because much scholarly study has disputed this.  I wasn't the first one to even introduce studying the Bible's historical context into the conversation, that was jcribb16.

I meant to throw in the gender card because it seemed that's the only people you were omitting.

I brought up the books, not the people.  Right here:

The Books of Ruth and Esther are believed to be something like historical fictions, designed not to tell literally true stories but to provide guidance and understanding of the themes portrayed and/or the subjects at hand.

You jumped to the conclusion of which people I was omitting entirely on your own.

I didn't accuse you of anything, so get off the soapbox.

No, you just heavily implied it, or at least I felt you did.  I don't have to get on a soapbox to be annoyed that you assumed that since I have Jewish heritage that meant it was logical to ask if I was against women and Gentiles.  If it was legitimately not your intent then I take it all back, but it sounded too close to the sort of thing I've heard before.

However, I see you twisting my words about the pagan holidays which you brought up.

You brought up the roots of Jewish holidays as though they were proof of the accuracy of the Book of Esther.  So I brought up pagan roots of modern traditions and asked if they were proof of pagan accuracy.  I don't think that's twisting your words, it's applying the logic you introduced to another situation, which I don't think is unfair.

Okay, so you celebrate Christmas, what has that got to do with the price of bread? Most Jews do not. So your different. You believe Jesus was real? Most Jews do not.

It has nothing to do with anything, you chose to say "December 25th to you means nothing" and I responded because you were wrong.  I was raised Christian.  When I said "ethnically Jewish" it didn't mean I have ever practiced Judaism; it means that my mother was Jewish and that's how ethnic Jewishness works(as per Leviticus 24.10).  I may have done a poor job of clarifying that earlier, sorry if it seemed like I was implying something else.

I don't know if most Jews think Jesus wasn't real, per se...my understanding has always been that they don't think He was the Messiah but that they do believe He existed or are neutral about it.  But like I said I can't speak for the Jewish.

However, everybody makes their own choices what they believe.

I concur.

[Annella]

No, I'm not making this about you. You made this about you by and saying well, well, well, I'm Jewish so I should know my history.

Your first post to me began with

If you don't believe the Bible kezalter, just say so.

So you made it about me from the start.  I brought up my background because your first tact was to say that I was posting things that would give Jewish posters here pause, and that I didn't study enough Jewish history.  Then after I defended myself you took the approach that I must be sexist and bigoted against Gentiles.  (That was how it came off to me but I suppose I could have misread it.)

you called the Bible fiction

Wrong.  I said that a couple of individual texts may be best read as historical fictions whereby their story and message is more important than their historical accuracy.  I brought this up because I was replying to "Everyone listed in there is in there for a reason" and the suggestion that it was because they historically existed.  I disputed this because much scholarly study has disputed this.  I wasn't the first one to even introduce studying the Bible's historical context into the conversation, that was jcribb16.

I meant to throw in the gender card because it seemed that's the only people you were omitting.

I brought up the books, not the people.  Right here:

The Books of Ruth and Esther are believed to be something like historical fictions, designed not to tell literally true stories but to provide guidance and understanding of the themes portrayed and/or the subjects at hand.

You jumped to the conclusion of which people I was omitting entirely on your own.

I didn't accuse you of anything, so get off the soapbox.

No, you just heavily implied it, or at least I felt you did.  I don't have to get on a soapbox to be annoyed that you assumed that since I have Jewish heritage that meant it was logical to ask if I was against women and Gentiles.  If it was legitimately not your intent then I take it all back, but it sounded too close to the sort of thing I've heard before.

However, I see you twisting my words about the pagan holidays which you brought up.

You brought up the roots of Jewish holidays as though they were proof of the accuracy of the Book of Esther.  So I brought up pagan roots of modern traditions and asked if they were proof of pagan accuracy.  I don't think that's twisting your words, it's applying the logic you introduced to another situation, which I don't think is unfair.

Okay, so you celebrate Christmas, what has that got to do with the price of bread? Most Jews do not. So your different. You believe Jesus was real? Most Jews do not.

It has nothing to do with anything, you chose to say "December 25th to you means nothing" and I responded because you were wrong.  I was raised Christian.  When I said "ethnically Jewish" it didn't mean I have ever practiced Judaism; it means that my mother was Jewish and that's how ethnic Jewishness works(as per Leviticus 24.10).  I may have done a poor job of clarifying that earlier, sorry if it seemed like I was implying something else.

I don't know if most Jews think Jesus wasn't real, per se...my understanding has always been that they don't think He was the Messiah but that they do believe He existed or are neutral about it.  But like I said I can't speak for the Jewish.

However, everybody makes their own choices what they believe.

I concur.

Well, for the sake of going over and over this....you did take some of my post wrong.

I know a lot of Jews, and have a stereotype in my head since a lot of them are Orthodox.  That's not you.  You say you were raised Christian.  I guess you are not now.....just raised that way.  That actually makes sense considering  your responses.  Don't make anything of that, just an observation.

Uh, I have no idea why you would think I accused you of being against women and Gentiles.  Was far from my mind.  I did want to know if you had a problem with those particular 2 women.  Because Ruth was not Jewish and would have marred the pure bloodline.  It was a question, nothing more.  Your taking this as an afront to you and it's not.  However, you did mention the books of Esther and Ruth.  Those books are about the namesakes they are titled after.  Are you really offended at that or just being picky?  If your not Jewish, your a Gentile, correct?  My Jewish friends have never made me feel inferior because I'm a woman, so I don't know what your talking about that you hear this often.

If you would have said you did not practice Judaism, that would have answered a lot of questions.  You kind of beat around the bush about that, but I understand saying too much on a public forum.  My assumption (and it was mine),  you were a practicing Jew, and that's why you were saying certain things in the Bible were not true.  A lot of Jews do not even think the New Testament is acceptable.  Jesus was maybe a prophet, man, nobody.  They certainly don't believe He was the Messiah, on and on. 

If you really think about what you said from an Orthodox Jew's standpoint, it would be surprising also.  There is such devout reverence for the Old Testament among those practicing Judaism.  I was surprised that you mentioned it being common that Jews are saying a lot of stories could be fictional.  I've never heard one of my friends say that.  Of course there are many sects of Jews (I'm finding out), with their own sets of rules what is acceptable and not.

[Annella]

You falconer just told the biggest lie.  I do not call anyone names, and haven't.

"nasty"
"arrogant"
"idiot"
"hateful"
"discontent"

We've been called names, degraded for even being Christians, week, delusional, brain dead, stupid, slimy, etc

We haven't called anyone names. Atleast I haven't and I don't recall anyone else. Delusional isn't a deragatory term if one uses it in the correct context (a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact). I have called the opposing reasonings a joke. I think that's all- I could be missing one or two. Everything was aimed at the argument the person is presenting- not the specific person.

kez and I are discussing something totally different than what you and Jcribb are discussing so your effort to drag them in this is absurd.  Of course this is a public forum so they are welcome to add their 2 cents.

Am I? Unless I'm mistaken, I just commended the interesting read.

She can't explain "Faith" because it is something that is not seen.  You keep calling it mystical when in actuality it's the core of Christian living.  We can't explain it but say:  Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  It will never be something you can tangibly touch.

I understand, but with everything that is being discussed here pertaining to the real world, religious faith looks more and more like self deception to those with aerial viewpoints who have been on the religious grounds before. If you're going to argue for something, faith isn't really a good card to pull since, like I stated earlier, it allows for the impossible. It destroys all legitimacy to an argument. And considering we keep arguing and we keep coming back to faith, this word keeps causing it to spiral round and round. It seems more of like a safe-zone the christians keep running back to rather than trying to find a decent answer.

And you have gotten mean falconer, it makes me sad.

I was going to brag about the pile of dead bodies behind me, buuuuut now maybe I shouldn't.

Those are character traits I was pointing out.  I've never called anyone a cuss name, however, I've been called a "*bleep*" more than once. Cussed out to.....seasoned with the "f' word.  I'll Clarify once more, I did not call you an idiot, I said you were talking to Jcribb like she was an idiot.  I've mentioned this twice, so chill out.  No, I don't recall you ever calling me names.  You are correct in that.

Yeah, you've mentioned before you have been a Christian.  You are not the only one.  It seems those of you who are so rotten to us have been Christians before, and now they are going to give "us" what for!  I also have to take into account that (maybe) you didn't get a real experience with God. I know of people that got turned off Christianity because they got involved in a church that had leadership that wasn't saved themselves, and hurt people.

God does work in the realm of the impossible.  I've seen it with my own eyes.  Would you believe me?  I'll tell you right now.....no  I've told of some things I've witnessed personally, and been called a liar.  Why should we try to prove God to you when you have no intention of believing it anyway?

This insomnia is going to kill me.

[queenofnines]

And just what is walking the walk with you Falconer?  Since we live our life by the scriptures, we are living what God laid down as what is befitting a Christian.  No verse is "random" to us one bit

I can sum this up quite easily: there are over 600 commandments in the Bible, and you and and all other Christians ignore 90 percent of them.  Which is a good thing ultimately, because we'd have to lock you all up if you took even a fraction of them seriously.  All of this should make you question the validity of what you worship, but instead you stand in fear of imaginary places, content with being a hypocrite.

Oh, and stop playing the victim card, Annella.  It's been more than just me who's picked up on your unsavory personality lately.

[Annella]

Hey there are ones who want to hear what the Bible says, and those who don't.  I could care less what you think qon.

[queenofnines]

Let's make sure that the readers understand that it is of your opinion that my comments were fallacious.

Nope.  Not opinion. 

What you don't understand and one of the biggest keys to all of this is that you are playing with a major handicap.  Most Christians are so emotionally, physically, financially, etc. invested in their beliefs that reason and reality don't/wouldn't work on them.  They've built up this wall of stubbornness because they so desperately want their beliefs to be true. They think if they can will their beliefs to be true, that actually makes them true, when in reality, they are blind to so much. 

I really think you all are either terrified of there not being a god and death being the end, or you just really, really want there to be a heaven to the point that your unfounded hopes become a dependence to function in life.  It's fun to get passionate about a cause, even if that cause is ultimately false, which is where we see a lot of the gusto for Christ.

You're immersed in the religious culture, either forced by birth or as your own choice early on.  Now that you've invested all of this time and you have a gaggle of people you enjoy spending time with who also perpetuate the lie, you are blinded once again by "strength in numbers".  Another major roadblock in seeing that your "truth" is only true to you.

It can be quite shocking if you ever have the strength to take your blinders off and see the world for how it really is...the sooner you do it, the more time you save in your precious, one and only life.

[queenofnines]

I could care less what you think qon.

And you think I'm actually directing comments at you for your benefit?  lol  I'm pointing out your ignorance for others, plain and simple.  It was never about you.