Um, Why Was "If you believe in God, You're a retard" Locked?

[samxavior198]

How many of you believe in accidential happenings? How many people would like to think that they're just a mistake? Or maybe forget all that I've just said. Just look outside your window right now. Yeah, just take your eyes off your computer and look outside the window right now. Take a moment............Do you think the world, beautiful nature, the seas, the mountains, the sky, the galaxies, the planets, OH, so you think all of these are accendential happenings. Just like evolutionists say it, an extremely huge explosion happened and the world existed and continued to evolve. Or if would you take the time to think, yes think. You might realize that this could only be the masterpiece of a Creator. Read the first book of the Bible, even if you don't believe that the Bilble is true. Read about creation. Then take all you know about evolution and compare them both. Creation: God created two of every kind of animal, bird, etc... and then he created a man and a woman so that the two genders of all he created could mate and produce ones of their kinds. Evolution: some explosion happened. Everything started to evolve since then. Man, too, evolved from day one until he became the normal form of a man over a period of time. MY QUESTION::: Why has evolution stopped??? Why has the world and man stopped evolving? And the way we know it today, based on creation, a man and a woman gives birth to a child, just like all other animals give birth to their own kind. What do you think about that??  Would you consider me a retard if I believe in God???  Or should I consider you a retard for believing that there is no God???

[queenofnines]

I'm just pointing out that (from what I am reading and understand) you also have belief in things without evidence.

Technically yes...but there's a scale to these things.  Having belief without solid evidence that there was a natural cause for the Big Bang vs. belief without solid evidence that a magical sky parent did it (no offense) -- one of these carries more weight in terms of credibility.

I still think it should be a rule that one should not believe in things without evidence and/or in the face of bad evidence as much as possible.  And bad evidence is all we have when it comes to believing in a personal, supernatural deity.

Isn't using such a word as (IF) more agnostic than atheist?

Like Falconer said...there's different terms when it comes to the various positions.  I am a gnostic-atheist when it comes to the Abrahamic gods (I know they are non-existent due to their descriptions and based on logical proofs).  I am an agnostic-atheist when it comes to undefined gods within the entire universe (that is, I can't "know" they don't exist, but I don't believe they do).

A person is either a theist or atheist when it comes to BELIEF.  Agnosticism isn't a position of belief.  Good video on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIKeC9k2-Jg

[shernajwine]

Technically yes...but there's a scale to these things.  Having belief without solid evidence that there was a natural cause for the Big Bang vs. belief without solid evidence that a magical sky parent did it (no offense) -- one of these carries more weight in terms of credibility.

So, you're saying you have faith that it was naturally caused, but that's not the same kind of faith that theists have for a supernatural cause because (in your opinion) your premise for faith is more credible??

Edit: Thank you for the clarification

Like Falconer said...there's different terms when it comes to the various positions.

 

[jcribb16]

How many of you believe in accidential happenings? How many people would like to think that they're just a mistake? Or maybe forget all that I've just said. Just look outside your window right now. Yeah, just take your eyes off your computer and look outside the window right now. Take a moment............Do you think the world, beautiful nature, the seas, the mountains, the sky, the galaxies, the planets, OH, so you think all of these are accendential happenings. Just like evolutionists say it, an extremely huge explosion happened and the world existed and continued to evolve. Or if would you take the time to think, yes think. You might realize that this could only be the masterpiece of a Creator. Read the first book of the Bible, even if you don't believe that the Bilble is true. Read about creation. Then take all you know about evolution and compare them both. Creation: God created two of every kind of animal, bird, etc... and then he created a man and a woman so that the two genders of all he created could mate and produce ones of their kinds. Evolution: some explosion happened. Everything started to evolve since then. Man, too, evolved from day one until he became the normal form of a man over a period of time. MY QUESTION::: Why has evolution stopped??? Why has the world and man stopped evolving? And the way we know it today, based on creation, a man and a woman gives birth to a child, just like all other animals give birth to their own kind. What do you think about that??  Would you consider me a retard if I believe in God???  Or should I consider you a retard for believing that there is no God???

I absolutely agree with you.   

[jcribb16]

Quote from queenofnines:
"So a god thing that created this universe and then forgot about us...that is the main thing atheists/agnostics can't 100% disprove.  But does such a notion of reality really sound reasonable?  No, no it doesn't.  This indifferent god hasn't specified any "rules" or requirements like the made-up personal gods have, so why should I care even IF such a being existed?"

I would like to address this particular remark.  I really wish you would add that this is "your opinion" that there are "made-up personal gods."  You see, that's where I get  when you address your opinion as fact.  I totally understand where you are coming from with what you believe but I don't call it your "made-up personal science 'no god'". So I would like the same respect in return as I worhip the Lord.  Please stop calling my Lord "made-up." At least until you can actually show me (in eternity) that He is not real.  I may be doing the same for you in eternity one day, by showing you He is real.

[queenofnines]

How many of you believe in accidential happenings?

I do in the colloquial sense.

How many people would like to think that they're just a mistake?

I am the consequence from the exact time and conditions that two people chose to have sex...that isn't a mistake - that's biology.

Do you think the world, beautiful nature, the seas, the mountains, the sky, the galaxies, the planets, OH, so you think all of these are accendential happenings.

The conditions of the universe made it so.  Why do you think that's an "accident", just because a magical sky daddy wasn't behind it?

I would also counter your description of beauty with all the ugliness and cruelty in the world.  Your god would be the one ultimately responsible for all of that, remember.

Just like evolutionists say it, an extremely huge explosion happened

Stop right there.  Who told you biologists study the universe?  That would astronomers, thanks.

Or if would you take the time to think, yes think.

Don't you mean not think?  Downsize your thinking, at least.  You want people to reduce the awesomeness of the cosmos to some petty, bored, human-like deity...and not just any deity, the *specific deity* that you were born and brainwashed into believing.  Let's just ignore the fact that it would be a *different specific deity* had you been born elsewhere...

You might realize that this could only be the masterpiece of a Creator.

Actually, evolution explains the diversity of life.  But you've already demonstrated you don't know and aren't interested in knowing a thing about it.

Creation: God created two of every kind of animal, bird, etc... and then he created a man and a woman so that the two genders of all he created could mate and produce ones of their kinds.

Two of every kind is not enough genetic diversity.  You're also forgetting that the Bible wants you to believe that man came from DIRT and that woman came from a RIB...and that they used INCEST to populate the earth, which means a lot of their offspring would have had to have been literally retards.  So I guess marie's offensive title for this post is true in a way...

Evolution: some explosion happened.

Ignorance alert!  There are no "explosions" in evolution.  You're missing two crucial steps before we even get to evolution: the Big Bang and abiogenesis.  They are NOT the same thing.

Why has evolution stopped???

It hasn't.  *sigh*  Ever hear of drug-resistant bacteria?  Ever get an immunization?  Also, evolution requires much more time than you're giving it.

the way we know it today, based on creation, a man and a woman gives birth to a child, just like all other animals give birth to their own kind. What do you think about that??

What's with the five question marks?  Are you trying to sound smart or authoritative?

Evolution involves slight changes over many generations.  A monkey is not going to just give birth to a human; please do yourself a favor and just admit you'd rather believe in what's easier and feels warm and fuzzy (sky god) than failing epically to make any claim of scientific knowledge.

[queenofnines]

I really wish you would add that this is "your opinion" that there are "made-up personal gods."

I'll throw this right back at you with a question: do you not think all of the ancient gods of the Egyptians, Romans, and Greeks were made up?  What about today's competition, Allah and Vishnu?  Are they made up?  If you DO think all of these gods are made up, why?  Have you substantially proven that your god of choice (Christian god) can beat out Zeus, Ra, Thor, or the thousands of others?

Btw, if you only believe in one specific god you are an atheist to all of the other gods.    I hope you picked the right one, as so many of them say: "No other gods before me!  And I'll burn you in hell if you don't believe in me!"

So I would like the same respect in return as I worhip the Lord.

I respect your right to believe whatever you wish; I don't, however, respect the beliefs.  So many bad things have and do happen because of those beliefs, not to mention it holds humanity back.  It is WHY the non-believers speak out... 

I also don't understand why you care if I claim your god is not real.  If you have sincerely convinced yourself, what does it matter what I say?  Psychology would say that for some people, having others demonstrate where their beliefs are false or flawed threatens them because it is deeply important to that person that they have an afterlife, a paternal figure watching over them, etc. and they don't want to get a whole lot of people admitting that all of this wishful thinking is simply not possible.

[502mania]

Creation: God created two of every kind of animal, bird, etc... and then he created a man and a woman so that the two genders of all he created could mate and produce ones of their kinds.

I actualy believe in creation. but i hope god didn't ONLY make two humans in the beginning, that would make EVERYONE a product of incest...

[shernajwine]

You want people to reduce the awesomeness of the cosmos to some petty, bored, human-like deity

Funny how you use the word "reduce" here..when in fact your statements for ultimate reality put you in a category of materialist reductionism.

Materialism is the simplest (or most simplistic) explanation of reality: the belief that all that exists is the physical; there are no higher realities; no psychic or spiritual truths independent of the physical world.  Materialism itself is a  meme, a specific, culturally determined way of thinking about reality.

A slightly longer definition: Philosophical materialism (physicalism) is the metaphysical view that there is only one substance in the universe and that substance is physical, empirical or material. Regarding the "big questions", the sceptical or Materialistic explanation of the universe is that everything is matter and energy, and there is nothing else.  Spiritual substance is a delusion. Consciousness is explained simply as an emergent phenomenon of the physical brain.  There can therefore be no such things as the "supernatural ", paranormal phenomena, post-mortem existence, or occult phenomena.  These are either delusions or reducible to physical forces.  Materialists are not necessarily atheists (as it is possible to identify God with the material universe, as in Pantheism).  However, Atheism is often a corollary of Materialism, especially in the sense of a denial of a supernatural personal  God or any sort of higher creative power.  Materialists do not deny the reality of such things as love or justice, beauty or goodness.

Reductionist materialism, or identity theorists, claim that the mind is identical to the brain in all respects
http://www.kheper.net/topics/worldviews/materialism.htm

Ever hear of drug-resistant bacteria?  Ever get an immunization?

And, this is the same type of evolution that brings you to...

Actually, evolution explains the diversity of life

Evolution explains the variety within a species, not the variety of different species we see today. Not seeing how drug-resistant bacteria explains how we have bacteria in the first place??

For samxavior198
Evolution still happens, evolution is change over time. It is responsible for cyclical variations within a species. But you are correct in that it can't explain how all species came from one common ancestor. There is no good evidence to support that and plenty of evidence against it.  

And I'll burn you in hell if you don't believe in me

There's that hell obsession again lol

[jcribb16]

I really wish you would add that this is "your opinion" that there are "made-up personal gods."

I'll throw this right back at you with a question: do you not think all of the ancient gods of the Egyptians, Romans, and Greeks were made up?  What about today's competition, Allah and Vishnu?  Are they made up?  If you DO think all of these gods are made up, why?  Have you substantially proven that your god of choice (Christian god) can beat out Zeus, Ra, Thor, or the thousands of others?

Btw, if you only believe in one specific god you are an atheist to all of the other gods.    I hope you picked the right one, as so many of them say: "No other gods before me!  And I'll burn you in hell if you don't believe in me!"

I do not know personally if all the other gods were made up or not.  I do know, however, that Jesus Christ sacrificed Himself on the Cross to save us from our sin - which shows how much He loved and loves us that come to Him.  Also, to accept Jesus out of fear of hell is wrong and I do not agree on that aspect.  Jesus loves everyone and only wants them to come to Him out of love, repentance of their sin, and reverence for their Savior.  I do not know of any of those other gods who sacrificed themselves out of love for their followers. So, therefore, I do not believe in those gods.  You are absolutely right:  my God did say there are no other gods before Him. That is true and that is why I believe in Him, not the others.  Another thing is His Word.  I won't go back there right now, I would just be going back around in a circle....   

[queenofnines]

Materialism is the simplest (or most simplistic) explanation of reality: the belief that all that exists is the physical; there are no higher realities; no psychic or spiritual truths independent of the physical world.

I agree.  But just because it's the simplest explanation does not mean the wonders of the universe are any less awesome without a god.  It's like just because you know how the magic trick works, can you not still enjoy it?  

Materialism itself is a  meme, a specific, culturally determined way of thinking about reality.

EVERYTHING is a meme.  It's just some memes have more going for them than others.  Memes can be good (like the germ theory of disease) or memes can be bad (we are all worthless sinners; now repent, and you can go to heaven!).  P.S.  Richard Dawkins coined the word meme. 

Spiritual substance is a delusion. Consciousness is explained simply as an emergent phenomenon of the physical brain.  There can therefore be no such things as the "supernatural ", paranormal phenomena, post-mortem existence, or occult phenomena.  These are either delusions or reducible to physical forces.

Agree.  Emphasis on the last sentence in particular.

Atheism is often a corollary of Materialism, especially in the sense of a denial of a supernatural personal  God or any sort of higher creative power.

Denial?  Woah there.  There actually needs to be tangible proof of something existing in order for me to "deny" it.

Materialists do not deny the reality of such things as love or justice, beauty or goodness.

But remember folks, those are just memes, too. 

There's that hell obsession again lol

Ha!  Okay, think I'm obsessed, but I was really just trying to make a point on how it's a disturbing aspect of many religions.

[shernajwine]

I agree.  But just because it's the simplest explanation does not mean the wonders of the universe are any less awesome without a god

I know you agree!  And the idea of what is awesome is subjective to the individual.

Richard Dawkins coined the word meme.

I know 

Denial?  Woah there.  There actually needs to be tangible proof of something existing in order for me to "deny" it.

LOL. Yeah okay.

[queenofnines]

I do not know personally if all the other gods were made up or not.

So you think it's possible for there to be multiple (albeit contradictory) gods, or are you just saying this to be politically correct?

I do know, however, that Jesus Christ sacrificed Himself on the Cross to save us from our sin

You "know"?  Hey now, weren't you the one telling me not to state opinion as fact?  Not to be harsh, but you don't know...you're putting your faith in stories crafted by our superstitious ancestors that were very similar to other gods of the time and have been botched and butchered throughout history.

which shows how much He loved and loves us that come to Him.

Why did he have to murder himself to himself as some sort of loophole to rules he himself created?  Couldn't he have just forgiven?  Or better yet, not cursed all of humanity for something 2 people did?

Jesus loves everyone and only wants them to come to Him out of love, repentance of their sin, and reverence for their Savior.

But if you don't...you'll burn in hell.  Sorry, I just had to mention it.  It is what you think is the "truth" after all, right?

I do not know of any of those other gods who sacrificed themselves out of love for their followers.

I can list at least 35:

Chrishna of Hindostan.
Budha Sakia of India.
Salivahana of Bermuda.
Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt.
Odin of the Scaudinavians.
Crite of Chaldea.
Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia.
Baal and Taut, "the only Begotten of God," of Phenicia.
Indra of Thibet.
Bali of Afghanistan.
Jao of Nepaul.
Wittoba of the Bilingonese.
Thammuz of Syria.
Atys of Phrygia.
Xaniolxis of Thrace.
Zoar of the Bonzes.
Adad of Assyria.
Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam.
Alcides of Thebes.
Mikado of the Sintoos.
Beddru of Japan.
Hesus or Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids.
Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls.
Cadmus of Greece.
Hil and Feta of the Mandaites.
Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico.
Universal Monarch of the Sibyls.
Ischy of the Island of Formosa.
Divine Teacher of Plato.
Holy One of Xaca.
Fohi and Tien of China.
Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece.
IxiOn and Quirinus of Rome.
Prometheus of Caucasus.
Mohamud, or Mahomet, of Arabia.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/chap1.html

 

[shernajwine]

You're also forgetting that the Bible wants you to believe that man came from DIRT and that woman came from a RIB...and that they used INCEST to populate the earth

Yes, how is this worse than you believing we came from soup and we all evolved from a common ancestor?

[Falconer02]

Yes, how is this worse than you believing we came from soup and we all evolved from a common ancestor?

Natural speculation with some evidences vs. supernatural mythology with closed reasonings. Going wayyy back to that poster I posted, science allows for pointing out mistakes. "We were wrong. This is the new evidence that says we are wrong." and then they move forward trying to perfect whatever is in the light. There's a bit of humility in it knowing that you're just trying to find the right answer. Most of the time religion cannot do this as it breaks the foundation of beliefs. Heck, it took the Vatican 400 years to acknowledge and apologize for making a mistake with prosecuting Galileo! Much like coding programs, if you take away or find holes in the original holy concept, everything following it will be questionable or corrupt. This leads to loss of faith towards the idea. And many people have told me personally that this is why they can't break away from their religious mindset. People don't want to give up the idea.

I always assume it's due to an emotional attachment from this point which I have no problem accepting (because the majority I know have had bad things happen to them in the past). Hey, if it helps and comforts the person, cool. But I believe they should keep such questionable faith-based beliefs to themselves instead of preaching to everyone (including skeptics) and getting unnecessarily aggrevated over them rationalizing and disproving.