The Official God Thread - To Discuss God and Seek Answers

[Annella]

For the religion of the founding fathers: http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

As for Thomas Paine...check out The Age of Reason.  He is usually cited as the most outspoken against religion.

And, queenofnines is correct about the quotes... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-47a0EHz_hw

Okay, so according to your first site, they all seemed to have a Christian religion they followed.  My breakdown in the book I have is a bit different. "Chronicles in US History".  Guess where I got it.........in Israel!!!!  lol lol lol  There was the best book shop near the Old City that had the best books.  Religious and otherwise.

I am, for lack of a better word, envious that you have been to Israel.  I would love to go...and in fact, the first year of rabbinical school is spent in Israel.  The thought of it both scares and excites me.

I'm going again next year.  I want to venture into the Upper Golan Heights this next trip.  Last time, There was unrest, and parts were Arab controlled.  They say it's uniquely beautiful up there.

You need to go and embrace what a rich heritage you have.  Passover in Jerusalem is wonderful.  Once you go, it calls you back again and again.  I find it uncanny that some people are drawn to Israel by some invisible cord, and others have no wish to go at all.  Something resonates within me, and pulls me over there constantly.  I've felt it for years.

[Falconer02]

founding fathers "practiced" and "followed" a gathering of believers.

I'm not looking for a massive debate here- just your personal take on this. My question to you is would there have ever been a revolutionary war if the founding fathers followed the bible? You may accuse me of taking these out of context or these verses were only to be followed during the time, but I think these speak for themselves-

1 Peter 2:13:  "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."

Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God.  Therefore whoever resist authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

Nobody can dispute that our first President (good old George) was a deeply religious man.

Quite the contrary! I've done a lot of research on this man since he...well...he's such a badass! lol Not to jolt the argument aside here, but George being a religious man is a very debatable subject. Despite fighting for those freedoms, it is my opinion that he wasn't very religious. I've read accounts that he only went to church to please his wife. Other accounts say he frequently went to church during trips just to seem normal among people. And even then he didn't go much-- he was either too busy with business or the distance needed to travel was too far. There were even accounts of him just standing outside of the church during sunday mass and walking around. So yes, completely debatable.

[jcribb16]

founding fathers "practiced" and "followed" a gathering of believers.

I'm not looking for a massive debate here- just your personal take on this. My question to you is would there have ever been a revolutionary war if the founding fathers followed the bible? You may accuse me of taking these out of context or these verses were only to be followed during the time, but I think these speak for themselves-

1 Peter 2:13:  "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."

Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God.  Therefore whoever resist authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

Nobody can dispute that our first President (good old George) was a deeply religious man.

Quite the contrary! I've done a lot of research on this man since he...well...he's such a badass! lol Not to jolt the argument aside here, but George being a religious man is a very debatable subject. Despite fighting for those freedoms, it is my opinion that he wasn't very religious. I've read accounts that he only went to church to please his wife. Other accounts say he frequently went to church during trips just to seem normal among people. And even then he didn't go much-- he was either too busy with business or the distance needed to travel was too far. There were even accounts of him just standing outside of the church during sunday mass and walking around. So yes, completely debatable.

Please check this out.  This shows much of his character and how it depicted Christian quality and a relationship with Christ.  http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g011.html

 

[Falconer02]

Jcribb, no offense to your beliefs, but I do suggest you look at sources that aren't default-christian and aren't pushing for an anti-christian conspiracy. Washington, among other FF's, was arguably a deist and he only made a few christian claims; most likely to blend in with the nations default religion. He never said anything of christian hopes when he was dying either.

Yet for the current revisionists who have made it their goal to assert that America was founded as a secular nation by secular individuals and that the only hope for America's longevity rests in her continued secularism, George Washington's faith must be sacrificed on the altar of their secularist agenda

  Something like http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/  is definately more legitimate.

Those who attempt to project a religious theology upon Washington often seek to connect theological beliefs with civic benefits, assuming morality is based on religion. In contrast, Madison and others crafted a government that could succeed even if Americans were not angels, thanks to a balance of powers. Jefferson and other "natural law" theorists assumed that individuals in a mature society would follow a common set of ethical principles, independent of the different religious beliefs held by individuals.

Washington was a man focused throughout his life on gaining honor and respect. He acted in public settings with some personal distance, even coldness, to reduce the likelihood of some informality reducing the respect he sought from others. So it is likely that he would desire political leaders today to also earn respect through moral, virtuous behavior - even at some personal cost to their comfort level.

[Annella]

founding fathers "practiced" and "followed" a gathering of believers.

I'm not looking for a massive debate here- just your personal take on this. My question to you is would there have ever been a revolutionary war if the founding fathers followed the bible? You may accuse me of taking these out of context or these verses were only to be followed during the time, but I think these speak for themselves-

1 Peter 2:13:  "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."

Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God.  Therefore whoever resist authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

Nobody can dispute that our first President (good old George) was a deeply religious man.

Quite the contrary! I've done a lot of research on this man since he...well...he's such a badass! lol Not to jolt the argument aside here, but George being a religious man is a very debatable subject. Despite fighting for those freedoms, it is my opinion that he wasn't very religious. I've read accounts that he only went to church to please his wife. Other accounts say he frequently went to church during trips just to seem normal among people. And even then he didn't go much-- he was either too busy with business or the distance needed to travel was too far. There were even accounts of him just standing outside of the church during sunday mass and walking around. So yes, completely debatable.

They are taken out of context, but will try to explain the best I can without adding or taking away.  

1 PETER 2:13......talking about a "human institution".  We have laws and rules of the land that we are admonished to obey...i.e. speed, and your going to get a ticket.  We have a Judicial system in place, law enforcement, etc.  These are rulers who enforce the laws of the land.  Then we have the law makers and those above them....on it goes.  We all pay our taxes, etc.  However, those laws do not dictate the laws of a man's soul....God does.  I can give you scripture, that says this.  You don't want a lengthy debate so you let me know..............

ROMANS 13:1  Again this is like above, but with a twist.  If you read further, it points to the Ministers and Authority of the church, and how we should give honor to the leadership and obey them as they Minister the Word to us....IF they fail themselves or teach anything other than Biblical teaching, we are admonished to find someone who does.

That's why Freedom of Religion is so important.  So the Government cannot dictate how we believe and worship God.  It's only the Bible and it's laws set down that we adhere to for our Salvation.  If my Pastor got up and started preaching something not in the Bible, and just took it out of the air....I'M GONE!!  If the Government made one religion and church that dictates we don't teach from the Bible, but only from DC Comics, I would have to follow the Word of God and rebel.  Scripture backs me up in this, as God's law is over man's.

The church of England basically made a law governing which religion everyone MUST adhere to.  It was against some of the laws of God.  The Pilgrims left to secure freedom to worship according to the Word and dictates of their hearts.

Ahab and Jezebel ruled in ancient times.  Jezebel was queen, and a appointed herself high priestess of the church of Idol Worship (Baal). The Hebrew children were told by God to NEVER worship idols.  The law of the land was set down to join the idol church. The Jews refused, and had to worship in secret, or be put to death.  Wasn't long until God sent Elijah and many events found Ahab dead and Jezebel eaten by dogs.

Roman rule vs Christians is another good example.

[queenofnines]

Our Nation started out with Christians living in it.

And all of the Native Americans said Christians murdered.  Err...  

We give thanks on that day just like the colonists (Pilgrims) because of the blessings of God on them.

I don't.  And for many of those who do, Thanksgiving has nothing to do with god and instead is all about tradition and an excuse to gorge yourself, baby!

the people who came to our great Nation and settled here were God fearing, and lived their lives accordingly.

Yeah, like they actually FOLLOWED the Bible when it came to killing witches and stuff.  They were *much* more "god-fearing" than today's Christians...  My husband doesn't think anybody ACTUALLY believes in god; it's all pretend.  If you ACTUALLY believed in god, you'd live your life quite differently.  Video that explains this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12mZiiaWuw

Nobody can dispute that our first President (good old George) was a deeply religious man.

Ready to get pwned?  This was negotiated UNDER George Washington:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. - Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html)

A Reality Check To A Christian Nation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNim0obC1tU
Another Reality Check To A Christian Nation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dEt8bP2Myk
Not Founded On Christian Principles - Thank God!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK0f6fZ9PSY

[queenofnines]

those laws do not dictate the laws of a man's soul....God does.  If the Government made one religion and church that dictates we don't teach from the Bible, but only from DC Comics, I would have to follow the Word of God and rebel.  Scripture backs me up in this, as God's law is over man's.

Uh-oh!  You see, this kind of talk is EXACTLY why religion is scary.

I watched a funny video recently, "10 Positive Things About Religion" and #2 was: You're only accountable to a non-existent deity - you can get away with anything.  Good comeback when y'all like to try to play the morality card. 

[jordandog]

People always talk about 'tyranny in the hands of the government'? That phrase sounds like 'tyranny in the hands of the Christians'.

[SurveyMack10]

those laws do not dictate the laws of a man's soul....God does.  If the Government made one religion and church that dictates we don't teach from the Bible, but only from DC Comics, I would have to follow the Word of God and rebel.  Scripture backs me up in this, as God's law is over man's.

Uh-oh!  You see, this kind of talk is EXACTLY why religion is scary.

I watched a funny video recently, "10 Positive Things About Religion" and #2 was: You're only accountable to a non-existent deity - you can get away with anything.  Good comeback when y'all like to try to play the morality card. 

Okay, people who believe in God don't feel they are accountable to something nonexistent. They believe they are accountable to the most powerful force, a force that can control where they spend eternity, YOU consider it non-existent, but most Christians are somewhat God-fearing.

[Annella]

those laws do not dictate the laws of a man's soul....God does.  If the Government made one religion and church that dictates we don't teach from the Bible, but only from DC Comics, I would have to follow the Word of God and rebel.  Scripture backs me up in this, as God's law is over man's.

Uh-oh!  You see, this kind of talk is EXACTLY why religion is scary.

I watched a funny video recently, "10 Positive Things About Religion" and #2 was: You're only accountable to a non-existent deity - you can get away with anything.  Good comeback when y'all like to try to play the morality card. 

Okay, people who believe in God don't feel they are accountable to something nonexistent. They believe they are accountable to the most powerful force, a force that can control where they spend eternity, YOU consider it non-existent, but most Christians are somewhat God-fearing.

There you go....couldn't have said it better M.

[jcribb16]

Quote from Falconer:
Yet for the current revisionists who have made it their goal to assert that America was founded as a secular nation by secular individuals and that the only hope for America's longevity rests in her continued secularism, George Washington's faith must be sacrificed on the altar of their secularist agenda.

Do you realize what you posted here?  Yes, it came from the link I posted, and this quote adequately says the truth in that whatever people try to say about George Washington's faith (even his own family who lived with and around him and saw him) will be stomped into the ground by non-believers.  Give the man the benefit of the doubt - he was known for his thoughtfulness of his workers, generosity for his family and friends, supporter of church and church activities, and believer of Christ. 

[Annella]

Quote from Falconer:
Yet for the current revisionists who have made it their goal to assert that America was founded as a secular nation by secular individuals and that the only hope for America's longevity rests in her continued secularism, George Washington's faith must be sacrificed on the altar of their secularist agenda.

Do you realize what you posted here?  Yes, it came from the link I posted, and this quote adequately says the truth in that whatever people try to say about George Washington's faith (even his own family who lived with and around him and saw him) will be stomped into the ground by non-believers.  Give the man the benefit of the doubt - he was known for his thoughtfulness of his workers, generosity for his family and friends, supporter of church and church activities, and believer of Christ.  

Hey J, good post.  Do you wonder what will be said about us as Christians 200 years down the road (if the world is still here) by non believers?   What do we care, as we'll certainly be in a better place.

[jcribb16]

Quote from Falconer:
  Something like http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/  is definately more legitimate.


Ok!  I researched your link and yes, there are different aspects of Washington included.  I was especially interested in the section titled: "Washington's Copy of
Rules of Civility & Decent Behaviour
In Company and Conversation"

"These maxims originated in the late sixteenth century in France and were popularly circulated during Washington's time. Washington wrote out a copy of the 110 Rules in his school book when he was about sixteen-years old.

This exercise, now regarded as a formative influence in the development of his character, included guidelines for behavior in pleasant company, appropriate actions in formal situations, and general courtesies, such as: "Superfluous Complements and all Affectation of Ceremonie are to be avoided, yet where due they are not to be Neglected" (no. 25); "Think before you Speak" (no. 73); and "Rince not your Mouth in the Presence of Others" (no. 101).


During the days before mere hero worship had given place to understanding and comprehension of the fineness of Washington's character, of his powerful influence among men, and of the epoch-making nature of the issues he so largely shaped, it was assumed that Washington himself composed the maxims, or at least that he compiled them. It is a satisfaction to find that his consideration for others, his respect for and deference to those deserving such treatment, his care of his own body and tongue, and even his reverence for his Maker, all were early inculcated in him by precepts which were the common practice in decent society the world over. These very maxims had been in use in France for a century and a half, and in England for a century, before they were set as a task for the schoolboy Washington'"

So, I still maintain my stand as him being a Christian and trying to live a Godly life.

[jcribb16]

Quote from Falconer:
Yet for the current revisionists who have made it their goal to assert that America was founded as a secular nation by secular individuals and that the only hope for America's longevity rests in her continued secularism, George Washington's faith must be sacrificed on the altar of their secularist agenda.

Do you realize what you posted here?  Yes, it came from the link I posted, and this quote adequately says the truth in that whatever people try to say about George Washington's faith (even his own family who lived with and around him and saw him) will be stomped into the ground by non-believers.  Give the man the benefit of the doubt - he was known for his thoughtfulness of his workers, generosity for his family and friends, supporter of church and church activities, and believer of Christ.  

Hey J, good post.  Do you wonder what will be said about us as Christians 200 years down the road (if the world is still here) by non believers?   What do we care, as we'll certainly be in a better place.

Yes, Annella, you are so right!   

[queenofnines]

Give the man the benefit of the doubt - he was known for his thoughtfulness of his workers, generosity for his family and friends, supporter of church and church activities, and believer of Christ.

And you owe so much in your life to atheists, you don't even know it.  Like, oh, the discovery of DNA.  But who needs science, right?

Do you wonder what will be said about us as Christians 200 years down the road (if the world is still here) by non believers?   What do we care, as we'll certainly be in a better place.

Actually, at the current trends of decline, Christianity will be extinct in 200 years.  People who subscribe to some sort of religion then will have the same amount of credibility (none) as those who believe in ghosts and tarot cards do today.  And you'll be dead.

Whoops, too insensitive?