The Official God Thread - To Discuss God and Seek Answers

[jcribb16]

As long as no harm is being done, let's live and let live.

There IS harm being done on the religious side -- maybe not extremes by people on this forum specifically, but by being a member of the club, moderate believers are still encouraging the negative mindset and/or contributing financially/politically to the vile activities that stem from it.

What kind of harm is being done if someone hears the Gospel "message," and decides to accept that message?  Then when he/she dies one day, he/she goes to Heaven to be with God (if you can please look at the possibility of Heaven for just a minute.)  There is no harm in that whatsoever. Those people just have reassurance where they are going when they die. To you, it should not make one difference or the other, since you believe the way you choose to. The only harm then, is to the one who does not accept the "message" and goes to hell.  Then there's regret forever for not listening and accepting. Once again, should that really matter to you either since you are secure in what you feel or know?

Now, I do agree with you on a different aspect. There are "preachers" and other so-called "christians" out there, on tv and not, that are greedy and take advantage of innocent people.  I have to question their goals there.  I know they will receive their come-uppance one day, but that sure doesn't take care of them now.  It's people like this that make Christians look bad who are not supporting that kind of trash.

[amyrouse]

Queen has posted this video before, and I agree with it.  http://www.youtube.com/user/gogreen18?blend=4&ob=4

The reason why many atheists (and some believers) care about religion so much is because many followers use it when it comes to government.  The mirror can be flipped.  If a believer is so staunchly in support of their religion, why do they feel the need to use it to legislate?  Gay rights, reproductive and sexual rights (Sarah Palin comes to mind here, esp when looking at her daughter and how birth control could have come in handy), and so many other progressive issues are being pushed down by conservative believers that feel their morals should be utilized hand in hand with legislation.  Think homosexuality is a sin?  Fine...keep it personal for you, and don't try to push that belief upon those who don't agree, and are living their lives.  I'm not targeting anyone on this forum personally...I'm just giving an explanation here.  I have 613 commandments that I try to follow personally...but I am not expecting anyone else to follow those commandments.  I think that religion will not be as heated a topic when someday people stop making it that way...all people.

[queenofnines]

What kind of harm is being done if someone hears the Gospel "message," and decides to accept that message?

Okay first of all, I'm going to assume you mean, "What's the harm of a MODERATE Christian?"  And there's plenty.

The #1 greatest harm of being just a "moderate" Christian is: you're still a member of a club where some people do horrible things under the cover of the same beliefs that you share.  The more people that are in the club, the more encouragement is given to the mindset that makes some people feel justified murdering gays, tormenting a woman who got an abortion to the point of suicide, voting against civil rights, miring our children's educational system, etc.

Now you might say, "Oh, guilt by association isn't fair", and when it comes to something you can't choose (like being black), then yes it is.  But you can CHOOSE to be a Christian, and it takes CHRISTIANS for Christianity to exist.  You may not be the one bombing abortion clinics, but something you unknowingly said to a neighbor in Christ might have encouraged THEM to.

Again you might say, "Well THOSE Christians are crazy", forgetting that your Bible adamantly speaks out against homosexuals for example, even commanding that they be put to death.  Straight from the mouth of "god" himself.  Bring to light that it wasn't "god" who came up with such prejudiced brutality but instead primitive man, and people no longer have an excuse to commit such atrocious acts.  Because let's face it -- some people actually DO take the Bible literally, and they only think they're serving the lord by carrying out his **quite explicit** death orders.

[queenofnines]

The #2 greatest harm even for a "moderate" believer is: once they've allowed magical, impossible, woo-woo thinking to infiltrate their brain, they're going to be more susceptible to other B.S. throughout their life.  This includes - on the small-scale - of falling for scams, to the greater dangers of putting too much trust in a pastor that says donate $100 and god will fix all of their debt problems.

Another example is let's say a believer is held up in an alley and a voice inside their head - that they think is god - says, "You don't have to give him the money.  Tell him about Christ, and you'll be okay."  And so you say that and guess what happens?  Your husband beside you gets shot directly because you thought "god" was going to get you out of this mess.  Don't tell me that something like this couldn't happen, because I've been a Christian and I know the mindset, and it most certainly does!

[queenofnines]

when he/she dies one day, he/she goes to Heaven to be with God (if you can please look at the possibility of Heaven for just a minute.)  There is no harm in that whatsoever. Those people just have reassurance where they are going when they die.

The #3 greatest harm deals with this.  Has life after death been proven?  No, not even in the slightest.  When y'all think of a "soul", most of the time you're referring to your personality, but guess what?  Personality is located 100% in the brain.  This has been proven by science.  Your brain is physical just like the rest of your body, so if you can admit your body dies and withers away, why wouldn't your brain which contains your personality (being a physical part of your body) die too?

You're believing in this magical occurrence of somehow your personality will float into another dimension where you'll receive a new body with special "soul senses" (remember, you need the physical senses of sight, touch, smell, etc. AND a brain to interpret it all to be able to perceive your surroundings AT ALL).  How does that not sound ridiculous to people?!

But anyway, back to the harm...so you are having people convince themselves of a lie just because they're sad about death.  They may, in turn, take their one and only life for granted if they think the "real" life starts after they die.  It is a death cult: don't worry too much about living *this* life to the fullest, because it is just the doormat you wipe your feet on before entering eternity (of which we have no proof of).  If someone dies in a car wreck and has their soul - er, brain - splattered all over the highway, instead of remembering them and actually grieving, we can forget about them over a weekend simply because we say they're in magical Happy Land.

The only harm then, is to the one who does not accept the "message" and goes to hell.

Being in the worst pain imaginable on end, FOREVER?  Wow, that's it??

It's clear from you and Sherna's nonchalant talk of hell that you two really haven't thought about it.  Too blinded by the fantasy of heaven to care, for sure.

Once again, should that really matter to you either since you are secure in what you feel or know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMcthUZGW8

[jcribb16]

What kind of harm is being done if someone hears the Gospel "message," and decides to accept that message?

Okay first of all, I'm going to assume you mean, "What's the harm of a MODERATE Christian?"  And there's plenty.

The #1 greatest harm of being just a "moderate" Christian is: you're still a member of a club where some people do horrible things under the cover of the same beliefs that you share.  The more people that are in the club, the more encouragement is given to the mindset that makes some people feel justified murdering gays, tormenting a woman who got an abortion to the point of suicide, voting against civil rights, miring our children's educational system, etc.

Now you might say, "Oh, guilt by association isn't fair", and when it comes to something you can't choose (like being black), then yes it is.  But you can CHOOSE to be a Christian, and it takes CHRISTIANS for Christianity to exist.  You may not be the one bombing abortion clinics, but something you unknowingly said to a neighbor in Christ might have encouraged THEM to.

Again you might say, "Well THOSE Christians are crazy", forgetting that your Bible adamantly speaks out against homosexuals for example, even commanding that they be put to death.  Straight from the mouth of "god" himself.  Bring to light that it wasn't "god" who came up with such prejudiced brutality but instead primitive man, and people no longer have an excuse to commit such atrocious acts.  Because let's face it -- some people actually DO take the Bible literally, and they only think they're serving the lord by carrying out his **quite explicit** death orders.

I'm sorry, but you are going too far in a direction that doesn't coincide with your normal Christians living day to day.  If you choose to stand by that, then remember atheists and non-christians do the same type of things.  Don't put this all off on "moderate" Christians.

[jcribb16]

The #2 greatest harm even for a "moderate" believer is: once they've allowed magical, impossible, woo-woo thinking to infiltrate their brain, they're going to be more susceptible to other B.S. throughout their life.  This includes - on the small-scale - of falling for scams, to the greater dangers of putting too much trust in a pastor that says donate $100 and god will fix all of their debt problems.

Another example is let's say a believer is held up in an alley and a voice inside their head - that they think is god - says, "You don't have to give him the money.  Tell him about Christ, and you'll be okay."  And so you say that and guess what happens?  Your husband beside you gets shot directly because you thought "god" was going to get you out of this mess.  Don't tell me that something like this couldn't happen, because I've been a Christian and I know the mindset, and it most certainly does!

Like I said, these kinds of things also happen to atheist and non-christian groups who all of a sudden called "by God" to do these things. Or not called by God and do these things.  Those are highly publicized cases you are speaking of and does not get any support from the millions of Christians who are truly involved in their own personal relationship with God. I am not part of that ridiculous group and it's a shame they use God that way.

[jcribb16]

when he/she dies one day, he/she goes to Heaven to be with God (if you can please look at the possibility of Heaven for just a minute.)  There is no harm in that whatsoever. Those people just have reassurance where they are going when they die.

The #3 greatest harm deals with this.  Has life after death been proven?  No, not even in the slightest.  When y'all think of a "soul", most of the time you're referring to your personality, but guess what?  Personality is located 100% in the brain.  This has been proven by science.  Your brain is physical just like the rest of your body, so if you can admit your body dies and withers away, why wouldn't your brain which contains your personality (being a physical part of your body) die too?

You're believing in this magical occurrence of somehow your personality will float into another dimension where you'll receive a new body with special "soul senses" (remember, you need the physical senses of sight, touch, smell, etc. AND a brain to interpret it all to be able to perceive your surroundings AT ALL).  How does that not sound ridiculous to people?!

But anyway, back to the harm...so you are having people convince themselves of a lie just because they're sad about death.  They may, in turn, take their one and only life for granted if they think the "real" life starts after they die.  It is a death cult: don't worry too much about living *this* life to the fullest, because it is just the doormat you wipe your feet on before entering eternity (of which we have no proof of).  If someone dies in a car wreck and has their soul - er, brain - splattered all over the highway, instead of remembering them and actually grieving, we can forget about them over a weekend simply because we say they're in magical Happy Land.

The only harm then, is to the one who does not accept the "message" and goes to hell.

Being in the worst pain imaginable on end, FOREVER?  Wow, that's it??

It's clear from you and Sherna's nonchalant talk of hell that you two really haven't thought about it.  Too blinded by the fantasy of heaven to care, for sure.

Once again, should that really matter to you either since you are secure in what you feel or know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMcthUZGW8

Life after death also has NOT been disproven.

[jcribb16]

by queenofnines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMcthUZGW8


The same opposite applies of why Christians get upset with atheists. 

[queenofnines]

I'm sorry, but you are going too far in a direction that doesn't coincide with your normal Christians living day to day.

You're missing the point.  It's like being a member of the *bleep* party and saying, "Well, I'm not a 'bad' *bleep*.  I'm not the one gassing Jews and stuff."  Do you see the problem here??

If you choose to stand by that, then remember atheists and non-christians do the same type of things.  Don't put this all off on "moderate" Christians.

Oh really?  In America, only 16% of the population is atheist and/or non-religious.  72% is Christian.  So where are all of these "atheists doing bad things" that you speak of?

While it's true there are some atheists who hate gays, are pro-life, and whatever else is in common with a god believer, we rarely hear about it because compared to the religious, there are FAR fewer non-believers that hold these "values".

[queenofnines]

these kinds of things also happen to atheist and non-christian groups who all of a sudden called "by God" to do these things.

This sentence doesn't make sense.  How can an atheist be called "by god" to do something bad?

Those are highly publicized cases you are speaking of

What does it matter if it was on the news or not?  Plenty of atrocities as the result of religion never make the news.  I think the fact that something like raping little boys is going on AT ALL because of religion is cause for concern.  Don't brush it off as, "Oh, I'm a civilzed Christian.  The believers that do bad things aren't really believers."  You have to take a look at how your religious ideas are affecting the world at large.

Want to argue that it's not religion that's the problem?  In the case of priests raping little boys, consider that they are in a religion that expects them to be celibate, says sex is a disgrace except within the confines of marriage, abhors homosexuality, etc.  Think about all of that repressed sexual tension...

[502mania]

damn, queenofnines, you tell 'em. 

[jcribb16]

I'm sorry, but you are going too far in a direction that doesn't coincide with your normal Christians living day to day.

You're missing the point.  It's like being a member of the *bleep* party and saying, "Well, I'm not a 'bad' *bleep*.  I'm not the one gassing Jews and stuff."  Do you see the problem here??

If you choose to stand by that, then remember atheists and non-christians do the same type of things.  Don't put this all off on "moderate" Christians.

Oh really?  In America, only 16% of the population is atheist and/or non-religious.  72% is Christian.  So where are all of these "atheists doing bad things" that you speak of?

While it's true there are some atheists who hate gays, are pro-life, and whatever else is in common with a god believer, we rarely hear about it because compared to the religious, there are FAR fewer non-believers that hold these "values".

To me, you simply sound as if you are totally against Christians, no matter how many law-abiding, good moral ones that there are.  I am a Christian, true, but don't lump me in with the stupid bunch making greedy fools of themselves.  You are too far-reaching with your blame.  The *bleep* example is something also that was tragic and doesn't compare here.

[jcribb16]

these kinds of things also happen to atheist and non-christian groups who all of a sudden called "by God" to do these things.

This sentence doesn't make sense.  How can an atheist be called "by god" to do something bad?

Those are highly publicized cases you are speaking of

What does it matter if it was on the news or not?  Plenty of atrocities as the result of religion never make the news.  I think the fact that something like raping little boys is going on AT ALL because of religion is cause for concern.  Don't brush it off as, "Oh, I'm a civilzed Christian.  The believers that do bad things aren't really believers."  You have to take a look at how your religious ideas are affecting the world at large.

Want to argue that it's not religion that's the problem?  In the case of priests raping little boys, consider that they are in a religion that expects them to be celibate, says sex is a disgrace except within the confines of marriage, abhors homosexuality, etc.  Think about all of that repressed sexual tension...

Once again, you are giving extreme cases that are not connected with the majority, normal Christians.  I would be glad to find examples of non-christians or atheists and turn it back on you.  But that's not the purpose here. People make their own choices (when murdering, raping, etc.) whether or not they are Christians, nons, atheists, etc. MY religious ideas (and my family/friends/etc.) are not affecting the world at large as you say, other than to offer them the way to Christ.  If they don't want Him, fine, their choice. 

[SurveyMack10]

Priests don't rape those children because of their religion...if that was the case all rapists would be that religion.