Babies...

[amyrouse]

Lot's daughters weren't strangers, and like you said before, women weren't seen as equals.  It wasn't about wanting to rape someone, but the strange men that had dared to come to their town.  It seems to me, upon re-reading the scripture (translated, of course.  I'm not fully fluent in Hebrew...yet), that the story is about the Sodomites' perverted view toward strangers.  Lot was sitting at the gateway to the city to greet the angels, and he had to insist upon the angels staying with him instead of the town square.  This suggests to me that he knew something was up, and was trying to protect the angels.  The citizens of Sodom were intent upon the angels; this doesn't suggest homosexuality to me but wanting to humiliate and defile those who were different.  They even made threats toward Lot that they would do worse to him for not only protecting the angels but for being "an alien" to the city.

I tend to not agree with you on Sodom and Gomorrah.  I don't think rape is a sexual perversion; rather a means of control and humiliation.  I will most likely continue to disagree with you on this, but its disagreement with a

No, you brought up the question of rape (see above), and I was just answering it.  It never was in my mind that it was rape......the interest was the men.

Before this Chapter....and I know you read your Bible so you'll know which scriptures I'm referring to.  G-d told Abraham that He was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah,  Abraham asked G-d, that if there were but 50 righteous, would he spare it?  G-d said yes.  You know that this went back and forth until it got down to 10, and G-d said He would not destroy it, if there were 10 righteous found......God knew there were not even 10 decent souls. The Lord said (Genesis 18:20) the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was very grievous.

Yes, Lot insisted that they stay with him, as he knew the deviated minds of the men of Sodom.  It was men that came around to Lot's house that night, both young and old.  They surrounded the house, and called out to Lot, asking where the men were, that had come to Lot's house that night.  They said "Bring them out unto us, that we may "know" them (Genesis 19: 4-5)

The word "know" definition, in the OT Hebrew (according to Strongs) is as follows:

3045, Yada (Yah dah) - There are a thousand meanings, including by a euphemism "to know", frequently denotes sexual intercourse (Gen 4:1, 4:17, 4:25, etc.).  When Adam "knew" his wife, this denotes sexual intercourse.  So do all the other scriptures listed above.  All through the Bible, that is the word for the act.  These are numbered the same (3045) as the word "know" in the story of the men calling out the angels.

Now, if all they wanted was to get to know them as just aquaintenances, over coffee or something, lets look at what Lot said, in the next verse (Genesis 19:6).  And Lot went out unto them, and shut the door after him, and said, I pray (beg) you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Wickedly?  If all these guys wanted was to get to know these guys (angels) as buds, why was Lot so afraid of the wickedness he was sure to follow?  In the next few verses they began to chide Lot as being something he was, but they showed no respect.  They tried to break the door down, and that's when the angels struck them with blindness. If they were not going to inflict any harm on the angels or Lot, why did the angels feel the need to blind them? Then it portrays that they wearied themselves to find the door.  They were determined to get to those angels.

Ok...I think I worded it wrongly... cursed internets lol.

What I meant was that they wouldn't be satisfied with raping "just anybody", that the angels were their intended.  They were planning on inflicting harm, but it was directed solely at "the strangers", which ended up including Lot when Lot stood up to them.  Lot wasn't "one of them", it wasn't until Genesis 13 when he parted ways with Abraham that he moved to Sodom.

Genesis 13:13 says the men of Sodom were sinful, but I can't find anything saying exactly what their sin was.  However, there are many verses in the bible about loving your neighbor and being kind to strangers and those without.  I know you know these without my pointing them out to you.  

I guess what it falls back to is a personal thing for me.  I have known many gay people, and it has never crossed my mind that they were not born that way.  I honestly don't see my g-d, the good and loving and forgiving g-d that I know, condemning someone for doing something so natural to them that was not harming anyone else.  I can see g-d condemning Sodom based on them being inhospitable to the point that they would take someone's dignity that way...because I personally believe rape is the worst crime there is...but I can't see g-d condemning based on who the citizens preferred to have consensual sex with (with the exception of children...totally against sex with children ).  

Also, it seems to me that homosexual activity wasn't the only type of sexual activity happening in Sodom, since the place kept repopulating itself.  Where did Lot's daughters' fiancees (that was a mouthful) come from?  If the men of the town were really homosexual, to have sexual relations with a woman would seem to me to go against their nature...and would be repulsive (cause I definitely know that sex with a woman is repulsive to me as a woman).  I also believe that there is more to sex than procreation...as we discussed earlier on this thread.  

Still totally disagreement with  .  

There's so many who don't tell what happened because of society's attitude towards it, and the scrutiny.....just like you mentioned.  Sometimes if someone is sexually active, they think they should just forget it, and get on with life......after all, they know what it's all about anyway........right?   Uh, not so fast......what about the emotional and mental trauma, that stays with you like glue?  The medical community is often clinical not just in their actions but attitude, to the point of almost blaming the woman.  Things are turning around, but not fast enough.  Did you ever see the movie "A Case of Rape"?  It's quite old, but very good in portraying what the woman suffers trying to bring her abuser to justice.  Warning.....it will infuriate you.  Maybe you shouldn't see it sweetie

Nope, haven't seen it.  Every time I watch "The Accused" with Jodie Foster, though, I stay ill for days.  Also, I loved the episode of "All in the Family" when Gloria was attacked on her way home from work and Edith convinced her to report it.  Another one of the reasons why Edith Bunker is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time. 

Luckily, I had done enough volunteering to know who to contact, and I was actually in touch with my local RCC within days.  The problem after that, though, was finding a counselor who didn't know me personally or hadn't worked with me.   

[Annella]

Lot's daughters weren't strangers, and like you said before, women weren't seen as equals.  It wasn't about wanting to rape someone, but the strange men that had dared to come to their town.  It seems to me, upon re-reading the scripture (translated, of course.  I'm not fully fluent in Hebrew...yet), that the story is about the Sodomites' perverted view toward strangers.  Lot was sitting at the gateway to the city to greet the angels, and he had to insist upon the angels staying with him instead of the town square.  This suggests to me that he knew something was up, and was trying to protect the angels.  The citizens of Sodom were intent upon the angels; this doesn't suggest homosexuality to me but wanting to humiliate and defile those who were different.  They even made threats toward Lot that they would do worse to him for not only protecting the angels but for being "an alien" to the city.

I tend to not agree with you on Sodom and Gomorrah.  I don't think rape is a sexual perversion; rather a means of control and humiliation.  I will most likely continue to disagree with you on this, but its disagreement with a

No, you brought up the question of rape (see above), and I was just answering it.  It never was in my mind that it was rape......the interest was the men.

Before this Chapter....and I know you read your Bible so you'll know which scriptures I'm referring to.  G-d told Abraham that He was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah,  Abraham asked G-d, that if there were but 50 righteous, would he spare it?  G-d said yes.  You know that this went back and forth until it got down to 10, and G-d said He would not destroy it, if there were 10 righteous found......God knew there were not even 10 decent souls. The Lord said (Genesis 18:20) the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was very grievous.

Yes, Lot insisted that they stay with him, as he knew the deviated minds of the men of Sodom.  It was men that came around to Lot's house that night, both young and old.  They surrounded the house, and called out to Lot, asking where the men were, that had come to Lot's house that night.  They said "Bring them out unto us, that we may "know" them (Genesis 19: 4-5)

The word "know" definition, in the OT Hebrew (according to Strongs) is as follows:

3045, Yada (Yah dah) - There are a thousand meanings, including by a euphemism "to know", frequently denotes sexual intercourse (Gen 4:1, 4:17, 4:25, etc.).  When Adam "knew" his wife, this denotes sexual intercourse.  So do all the other scriptures listed above.  All through the Bible, that is the word for the act.  These are numbered the same (3045) as the word "know" in the story of the men calling out the angels.

Now, if all they wanted was to get to know them as just aquaintenances, over coffee or something, lets look at what Lot said, in the next verse (Genesis 19:6).  And Lot went out unto them, and shut the door after him, and said, I pray (beg) you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Wickedly?  If all these guys wanted was to get to know these guys (angels) as buds, why was Lot so afraid of the wickedness he was sure to follow?  In the next few verses they began to chide Lot as being something he was, but they showed no respect.  They tried to break the door down, and that's when the angels struck them with blindness. If they were not going to inflict any harm on the angels or Lot, why did the angels feel the need to blind them? Then it portrays that they wearied themselves to find the door.  They were determined to get to those angels.

Ok...I think I worded it wrongly... cursed internets lol.

What I meant was that they wouldn't be satisfied with raping "just anybody", that the angels were their intended.  They were planning on inflicting harm, but it was directed solely at "the strangers", which ended up including Lot when Lot stood up to them.  Lot wasn't "one of them", it wasn't until Genesis 13 when he parted ways with Abraham that he moved to Sodom.

Genesis 13:13 says the men of Sodom were sinful, but I can't find anything saying exactly what their sin was.  However, there are many verses in the bible about loving your neighbor and being kind to strangers and those without.  I know you know these without my pointing them out to you.  

I guess what it falls back to is a personal thing for me.  I have known many gay people, and it has never crossed my mind that they were not born that way.  I honestly don't see my g-d, the good and loving and forgiving g-d that I know, condemning someone for doing something so natural to them that was not harming anyone else.  I can see g-d condemning Sodom based on them being inhospitable to the point that they would take someone's dignity that way...because I personally believe rape is the worst crime there is...but I can't see g-d condemning based on who the citizens preferred to have consensual sex with (with the exception of children...totally against sex with children ).  

Also, it seems to me that homosexual activity wasn't the only type of sexual activity happening in Sodom, since the place kept repopulating itself.  Where did Lot's daughters' fiancees (that was a mouthful) come from?  If the men of the town were really homosexual, to have sexual relations with a woman would seem to me to go against their nature...and would be repulsive (cause I definitely know that sex with a woman is repulsive to me as a woman).  I also believe that there is more to sex than procreation...as we discussed earlier on this thread.  

Still totally disagreement with  .  

Uh, Lot's daughters did not have boyfriends or Fiance's.  It just says they were virgins.  Of course it only mentions the men surrounding the house (young and old).  Tells me there had to be some women in the city because some young were there.  That doesn't mean anything though as Bi sexuality is common with some gays.

Oh, that wasn't their only sin.  Sodom and Gomorrah were also worshippers to idols like baal.  They would make an image of baal with his arms out, with a big plate in them.  Underneath a big fire was built, and they would sacrifice their babies/children to baal on that plate, after it got red hot.  They also taught their children all their perversions.  G-d destroyed both cities for these atrocities.  I for one can't see G-d destroying a city that is just not hospitable.

Also, it was dangerous to travel at night anywhere.  There were always robbers, wild animals, and such on the roads.  Lot sitting outside the city was common for a certain family or person to do this, to welcome travelers around sunset to spend the night in the city.  This is what Lot was doing.  It was counted an insult to turn those away during this time of day.  I know I'm injecting a lot here, but I've studied out the customs and times of the day.

Okay, the gay thing is personal......I understand.  We have some converted gays in our church.  One of our musicians has AIDS.  We don't care, they came in, got saved, they're brothers and sisters.  There's a guy that's like my best friend.  He used to be gay.....now he's looking for a wife.....lol   We all go out to dinner, and all sorts of stuff.  Amy, people are not born gay.  They become gay by choice.  Some become gay because of abuse in their childhood, (another symptom).  Mostly, they "choose" the lifestyle.  However, the Bible is specific about how G-d hates that sin, as he calls it an abomination.  It's spelled out in the New Testament as well.

I could go into depth here about this in particular, but this venue is not appropriate.  If you want to talk about it via our emails.....I'm game.

You can disagree anytime you like.......I still love ya

Nope, haven't seen it.  Every time I watch "The Accused" with Jodie Foster, though, I stay ill for days.  Also, I loved the episode of "All in the Family" when Gloria was attacked on her way home from work and Edith convinced her to report it.  Another one of the reasons why Edith Bunker is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time.  

Luckily, I had done enough volunteering to know who to contact, and I was actually in touch with my local RCC within days.  The problem after that, though, was finding a counselor who didn't know me personally or hadn't worked with me.

Counselors, Ministers, Lawyers, ect., cannot divulge anything they know about details of a case such as yours.  Even if you knew the counselors, they couldn't have said anything.  If I ever divulged anything I was told in counseling, I could lose my license, and could never darken a pulpit again.  Serious stuff!
 

[amyrouse]

Uh, Lot's daughters did not have boyfriends or Fiance's.  It just says they were virgins.  Of course it only mentions the men surrounding the house (young and old).  Tells me there had to be some women in the city because some young were there.  That doesn't mean anything though as Bi sexuality is common with some gays.

Genesis 19:14 NIV
So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

Most gay people do not look upon bisexuals as equals.  Most gays feel bisexuality is a cop-out.  I know; I've spent much time working as an activist.

I for one can't see G-d destroying a city that is just not hospitable.

There is a difference between simple inhospitability (as in not offering a guest in your home a place to sit or something to drink) and the inhospitability the Sodomites displayed.  Personally, I wouldn't be bothered if all rapists were gathered together into a single town and g-d reigned the fire down upon it...as bad as that thought may be...I know I'm supposed to love all humanity, but I have a hard time considering rapists as having any humanity.

Also, it was dangerous to travel at night anywhere.  There were always robbers, wild animals, and such on the roads.  Lot sitting outside the city was common for a certain family or person to do this, to welcome travelers around sunset to spend the night in the city.  This is what Lot was doing.  It was counted an insult to turn those away during this time of day.  I know I'm injecting a lot here, but I've studied out the customs and times of the day.

Just him sitting at the gates to the city is not what I have issue with...what concerns me is how adamant he was about the angels coming to stay at his home instead of the town square.  Seems he knew the angels were in danger.

Okay, the gay thing is personal......I understand.  We have some converted gays in our church.  One of our musicians has AIDS.  We don't care, they came in, got saved, they're brothers and sisters.  There's a guy that's like my best friend.  He used to be gay.....now he's looking for a wife.....lol   We all go out to dinner, and all sorts of stuff.  Amy, people are not born gay.  They become gay by choice.  Some become gay because of abuse in their childhood, (another symptom).  Mostly, they "choose" the lifestyle.  However, the Bible is specific about how G-d hates that sin, as he calls it an abomination.  It's spelled out in the New Testament as well.

I could go into depth here about this in particular, but this venue is not appropriate.  If you want to talk about it via our emails.....I'm game.

You can disagree anytime you like.......I still love ya

Ditto about the  , but I honestly can't believe homosexuality is a choice, or that monogamous consensual acts between two adults in the privacy of their own home should be dictated by anyone other than the two adults involved.  Just doesn't seem right to me.  But I can't judge anyone else that views it differently.  I can disagree, as long as the other disagrees with  as well.   

[Annella]

Genesis 19:14 NIV
So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

Sorry, got it mixed up with another story and different scriptures about the virgins.......slap me silly, and call me "goofy".  It's interesting as they stayed behind and were destroyed (the Fiance's).  

Just him sitting at the gates to the city is not what I have issue with...what concerns me is how adamant he was about the angels coming to stay at his home instead of the town square.  Seems he knew the angels were in danger.

Oh I'm sure he had to know they were somebody special.  After all, Lot was related to Abraham, and had probably seen and heard enough to know that the angels were not some ordinary travelers.

[amyrouse]

Nope, haven't seen it.  Every time I watch "The Accused" with Jodie Foster, though, I stay ill for days.  Also, I loved the episode of "All in the Family" when Gloria was attacked on her way home from work and Edith convinced her to report it.  Another one of the reasons why Edith Bunker is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time.  

Luckily, I had done enough volunteering to know who to contact, and I was actually in touch with my local RCC within days.  The problem after that, though, was finding a counselor who didn't know me personally or hadn't worked with me.

Counselors, Ministers, Lawyers, ect., cannot divulge anything they know about details of a case such as yours.  Even if you knew the counselors, they couldn't have said anything.  If I ever divulged anything I was told in counseling, I could lose my license, and could never darken a pulpit again.  Serious stuff!

It wasn't an issue of anyone divulging anything; more of them being so horrified they didn't know how to help me, really.  I had been an activist for years, working with human sexuality, women's rights, student government, and gay rights and was quite well known on my campus.  Even the chair of the Political Science department was speechless when I told her.  Most of my friends didn't know how to react or what to say to me that I didn't already logically know.  I needed to talk to someone who didn't know me so that they wouldn't worry about saying or doing the wrong thing to help me.  I ended up having to go to counseling outside of the RCC because of it.

[amyrouse]

Genesis 19:14 NIV
So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

Sorry, got it mixed up with another story and different scriptures about the virgins.......slap me silly, and call me "goofy".  It's interesting as they stayed behind and were destroyed (the Fiance's). 

's cool.  LOL.

Interesting food for thought, though.  We don't really know anything about the fiancees' other than they thought Lot was joking about the city being destroyed.  One can only wonder what was going through their heads as the place went up in flames...

Sorry...I can be a bit morbid sometimes.   

[Annella]

It wasn't an issue of anyone divulging anything; more of them being so horrified they didn't know how to help me, really.  I had been an activist for years, working with human sexuality, women's rights, student government, and gay rights and was quite well known on my campus.  Even the chair of the Political Science department was speechless when I told her.  Most of my friends didn't know how to react or what to say to me that I didn't already logically know.  I needed to talk to someone who didn't know me so that they wouldn't worry about saying or doing the wrong thing to help me.  I ended up having to go to counseling outside of the RCC because of it.

Understandable.  I would probably have to find someone outside my normal circle too, if something like that needed counseling.  I've had to go outside the state before just to keep a lid on a situation with someone very well known.  Since you knew everybody it would be sticky to say the least.  Do you have any idea if the guy is still around?  I worry about who else he may have hurt.

[Annella]

Genesis 19:14 NIV
So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

Sorry, got it mixed up with another story and different scriptures about the virgins.......slap me silly, and call me "goofy".  It's interesting as they stayed behind and were destroyed (the Fiance's).  

's cool.  LOL.

Interesting food for thought, though.  We don't really know anything about the fiancees' other than they thought Lot was joking about the city being destroyed.  One can only wonder what was going through their heads as the place went up in flames...

Sorry...I can be a bit morbid sometimes.  

Naw, it's interesting though.  They chose to stay there and fry.

I went down by the dead sea, and nothing......I mean nothing grows there.  Masada is close to the Southern end of it.  Everything around there is pretty spectacular.  Masada was a fantastic!  Most interesting place I've ever seen. They still have some baths with the mosaics dating back to Herod's reign.  

Engedi is a few miles up the road, about halfway on the shore of the dead sea.  They must have had to haul in top soil like crazy to build that resort.  It's lush, with flowers and palms everywhere.  A virtual oasis in the middle of the dead sea valley.

Can't wait to get back!
 

[amyrouse]

It wasn't an issue of anyone divulging anything; more of them being so horrified they didn't know how to help me, really.  I had been an activist for years, working with human sexuality, women's rights, student government, and gay rights and was quite well known on my campus.  Even the chair of the Political Science department was speechless when I told her.  Most of my friends didn't know how to react or what to say to me that I didn't already logically know.  I needed to talk to someone who didn't know me so that they wouldn't worry about saying or doing the wrong thing to help me.  I ended up having to go to counseling outside of the RCC because of it.

Understandable.  I would probably have to find someone outside my normal circle too, if something like that needed counseling.  I've had to go outside the state before just to keep a lid on a situation with someone very well known.  Since you knew everybody it would be sticky to say the least.  Do you have any idea if the guy is still around?  I worry about who else he may have hurt.

Not sure if he is or not.  He didn't live in the same town as I did, so I don't know anything about what may have happened to him after.  I did happen to find out that he posted personal ads online, though.  Lets just say some website administrators received some anonymous email that he had a history of raping women. 

[Annella]

LOL......good for you!

[amyrouse]

Sorry...I'm still hung up on the Sodom and Gomorrah thing...

In Genesis 19:5, the men when they came to Lot's door said to Lot to bring out the angels so that they may know them.  If it wasn't rape that this bible story is about, then the angels would have had to be willing to have sex with the men...but Genesis 19:11 proves that they weren't willing, since they struck the Sodomites with blindness...

Just a thought.

Another thought I've had...it was only the men at the doorway to Lot's house, yet G-d was going to destroy the entire city for their sins.  When Abraham was talking to g-d about this, g-d said that the city would be spared if ten righteous people could be found there.  However, the women are nowhere to be seen.  So, if the sin of Sodom was homosexuality, then why was it burned to the ground since the women weren't there to know the men.  However, if the sin of Sodom was being extremely inhospitable to strangers, then I can understand more why the women would go up in flames with it.

Ok...I'm done now, lol.

[Annella]

Sorry...I'm still hung up on the Sodom and Gomorrah thing...

In Genesis 19:5, the men when they came to Lot's door said to Lot to bring out the angels so that they may know them.  If it wasn't rape that this bible story is about, then the angels would have had to be willing to have sex with the men...but Genesis 19:11 proves that they weren't willing, since they struck the Sodomites with blindness...

Just a thought.

Another thought I've had...it was only the men at the doorway to Lot's house, yet G-d was going to destroy the entire city for their sins.  When Abraham was talking to g-d about this, g-d said that the city would be spared if ten righteous people could be found there.  However, the women are nowhere to be seen.  So, if the sin of Sodom was homosexuality, then why was it burned to the ground since the women weren't there to know the men.  However, if the sin of Sodom was being extremely inhospitable to strangers, then I can understand more why the women would go up in flames with it.

Ok...I'm done now, lol.

As far as quoting Genesis 19:5, I believe I started out with these same scriptures to explain this.  Why your pulling this out for proof of your stance, is confusing.

Um, of course the angels were not willing to have sex with those men or anyone.  What exactly are you saying here?  Am I losing some other meaning your trying to get across.  Just because the men wanted to "know" the angels, does not mean that the angels would have wanted to also, so that proves your point?  That doesn't even make sense.

Your second paragraph makes no sense either.  Since the sin was homosexuality, it would point to the men wanting the men angels.  Women had to be living there (in Sodom), as the Bible clearly says young and old were in the city.  They had to procreate in order to have young there.  I believe I addressed this in a previous post.  You are right in the fact that only men surrounded the house (both young and old).  Why?  They were the ones wanting to "know" the angels.  The homosexuals of the city.

Amy, you don't want to believe that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexuality.  Okay, you have free will to believe whatever you want.  However, your a Jew, get the old Hebrew texts and study it out.  Actually, Rabbi's believe this interpretation also.  I realize that you have gay friends.  I have friends that are no longer gay because they have turned to the Lord.  This is NOT gay bashing......not in the least.  This is Bible.  God hates the sin of homosexuality, that he called it an abomination.  Study out the word abomination, and you can get a good idea why God hated it so.  

God would not destroy 2 cities because they were inhospitable.  These 2 cities (as stated before), were in some wicked stuff.  Not just homosexuality, and involving their children in it, but Idol worship in offering human sacrifice and the sexual rituals that went along with it.

Do you realize that salt was used in the OT sacrifices to signify covenant between God and man?  However, it was also used as a judgement.  They would sow the land with salt destroying a city and it's land's as a token of it's irretrievable ruin.  David would sow cities and lands with salt after conquering them as they were wicked in Idol worship (sexual rites performed during, human sacrifice, etc.) and it was a means of purifying the wickedness before God, and making sure they could not rebuild or plant there anymore.  It was cursed ground because of the wickedness.

There's more than just God destroyed 2 cities.  There is reasoning behind it, and the way He did it.  The using of fire and brimstone is actually an explosion of salt and sulpher in upheaval in the air, and rains down as fire and brimstone.  Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt because of her disobedience of looking back after being commanded not to.  What happened (IMO), she stopped to look back, and the storm of fire and brimstone overtook her, as the others ran on.

In the Old Hebrew (which you like to quote), here is the definition of a "Sodomite" in the Strongs:
6945 qadeshe (kaw dashe) - A quasi (false) sacred person. i.e Tech, a male devotee by prostitution (to male) to licentious IDOLATRY.  Sodomite, unclean.

There were many Idolatry temples.  The Sodomites practiced the rite of sodomy in theirs.  They were filled with male prostitutes to lend "practice" to homosexuality in their temple rites and observances.    

In Ungers Bible Dictionary, it's definition as those who consecrate themselves in Idolatry in the unnatural act of sodomy and moral depravity.  A religious rite performed in Idolatry rituals.  

Then gives Bible scriptures, which are pretty self explanatory:

Romans 1: 22-27
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, creeping things (idols).  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves"  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever.  Amen.  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha , and the cities round about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example suffering the vengeance of external fire.


I don't understand why you made me go into great detail when you could have studied this out yourself.  You noted before reading the Bible in Hebrew.  Surely there is a Rabbi close or someone you look up to in your conversion that can shine some light on this subject.  I know a lot of churches are accepting homosexual ministers and such. This is so contrary to the Word of God.  Surely our time is short here.  This is not "Gay Bashing".  It's a study into why Sodom and Gomorrha was destroyed.

Now I'm done.  

[loulizlee]

I do not judge girls and women who have abortions - the judgment will be done by a higher power than me.  I myself do not believe in abortion.  I waited 13 long and heartbreaking years trying to conceive and going through many embarrassing procedures until I had my precious daughter 35 years ago.  Then her situation was almost the smae as mine, even to the number of years it took us be become pregnant.  She had our grandson 2 1/2 years ago, and I am so proud of the way they are raising him.  Both his mother and father are very much involved in every part of his upbringing, even though they both work.  That is why I favor adoption to abortion.  There are so many women wo cry every day for the feel of a baby in their arms. 

There are so many scenarios that lead up to the time when a woman will make that choice.  I believe a great majority of these women who seek pregnancies are actually underage girls, who do not have the experience to make good decisions in the first place - that place being having sex underage.  And I also believe the cause of a lot of this sad state lies at the doorstep of parents who have neglected their children - male and female - leaving them to make uninformed and emotional choices. 

Another thing I've noticed in recent years is the number of young girls who want to have a baby just to have someone to love and to love them.  It has happened more than once in my own extended family.  Does that tell you something?

[amyrouse]

As far as quoting Genesis 19:5, I believe I started out with these same scriptures to explain this.  Why your pulling this out for proof of your stance, is confusing.

Um, of course the angels were not willing to have sex with those men or anyone.  What exactly are you saying here?  Am I losing some other meaning your trying to get across.  Just because the men wanted to "know" the angels, does not mean that the angels would have wanted to also, so that proves your point?  That doesn't even make sense.

Exactly...just because the men wanted to "know" the angels doesn't mean the angels would also want to "know" the men.  That was my point.  Homosexual acts are consensual; rape is not.  To assume that it was homosexuality in this verse is to insinuate that homosexuals are rapists; this is a wrong and harmful idea.

Your second paragraph makes no sense either.  Since the sin was homosexuality, it would point to the men wanting the men angels.  Women had to be living there (in Sodom), as the Bible clearly says young and old were in the city.  They had to procreate in order to have young there.  I believe I addressed this in a previous post.  You are right in the fact that only men surrounded the house (both young and old).  Why?  They were the ones wanting to "know" the angels.  The homosexuals of the city.

I am not fully satisfied with the answer that bisexuality is common among gays.  I replied to that answer.  Bisexuals are not seen fondly by homosexuals; many homosexuals believe sexuality is either/or...that a person can't naturally be attracted to both male and female.  I'm not denying what the bible says...I'm not satisfied with the conservative interpretation of that scripture.  If homosexuality was the sin, and g-d agreed to not destroy the town if there were 10 righteous, then why were the women taken down with the town, unless women are substandard and don't count among the righteous.

Amy, you don't want to believe that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexuality.  Okay, you have free will to believe whatever you want.  However, your a Jew, get the old Hebrew texts and study it out.  Actually, Rabbi's believe this interpretation also.  I realize that you have gay friends.  I have friends that are no longer gay because they have turned to the Lord.  This is NOT gay bashing......not in the least.  This is Bible.  God hates the sin of homosexuality, that he called it an abomination.  Study out the word abomination, and you can get a good idea why God hated it so.  

God would not destroy 2 cities because they were inhospitable.  These 2 cities (as stated before), were in some wicked stuff.  Not just homosexuality, and involving their children in it, but Idol worship in offering human sacrifice and the sexual rituals that went along with it.

You're right, I don't believe that the sin was homosexuality.  I don't see anything in the Tanakh that says outright homosexuality is a sin.  The bible is very clear on other sins, yet there is no outright statement in the bible about homosexuality being a sin.  The interpretation of homosexuality being a sin is just that: interpretation.  Orthodox and Chasidic Rabbis believe that interpretation; however, Conservative and Reform Rabbis don't.  And the destruction was not simple inhospitability; it was degradation and disrespect of a person's entire being...that is rape.  It hurts me personally to think that people would believe homosexuality is worse than rape; its not.  Anything else the Sodomites may have done just added fuel to that fire.

I don't understand why you made me go into great detail when you could have studied this out yourself.  You noted before reading the Bible in Hebrew.  Surely there is a Rabbi close or someone you look up to in your conversion that can shine some light on this subject.  I know a lot of churches are accepting homosexual ministers and such. This is so contrary to the Word of God.  Surely our time is short here.  This is not "Gay Bashing".  It's a study into why Sodom and Gomorrha was destroyed.

I have studied.  I have talked to my Rabbi about this.  He actually helped me prepare a presentation in 2006 going over this same information.  My rabbi agrees with me that it is wrong to make people believe their very nature is sinful, and I happen to believe he would be proud of the fact that I am taking the time to read the scripture myself and come to my own interpretation.  He encourages this.  On several occasions we have discussed the very same thing and he has told me that I was a strong and brave woman for standing up in my community and declaring that there is nothing wrong with a person being who they are.  He has supported me as I have fought in my community for these equal rights.  My rabbi says that in a room with four Jews exists five Judaisms.  Its about personal interpretation.  I refuse to allow someone else to sway my own personal interpretation.

Conservative and Reform Judaism both honor homosexual marriage and ordain gay ministers.  I'm sorry that you believe that my religion and my initiative to interpret the bible myself is so contrary to the word of g-d.  I believe that g-d wants me to study and make my own interpretations.  I believe that g-d doesn't wish for me to "pray the gay away" because I believe people are born gay.  I believe that g-d loves me and is proud of me. 

I'm sorry that I've upset you so, but when something doesn't seem right to me, I am going to speak up.  Doesn't mean there is any less  .  Just a difference in opinion and interpretation.

[Annella]

Well, this is not about personal interpretation.  I've studied it just like you say you did.  I gave scriptural reference, but see none from you to prove YOUR point.  Just your own interpretation.  I would like to see the paper you prepared with your Rabbi's help in 2006, can you post it?

Okay, you made the statement that Conservative and Reform Rabbi's don't believe homosexuality is a sin, but the older Orthodox and Chasidic Rabbi's do.  This explains a lot to me.  I know there are a lot of religious movements that are embracing this way of life as normal.  We aren't one of them......I think this is where the debate lies.  Not actually what the Bible says or doesn't say.  I mean the debate between you and I.  I do know what the Bible says about this.

I gave you Hebrew interpretation of a Sodomite, plus scripture explaining homosexuality from the Bible.  I see you left those out posting in your answer.  I was under the impression that you believed the Bible.  Maybe you use another book or something.  If this is the case, that you don't believe the Bible, then I've wasted my time trying to use it as reference material and Hebrew translations of it.

I know now I've wasted my time on this.  I'm not upset, just confused about where you stood on the scriptures.
Now I know, that's all.