Hell is an Unattended Stove

[Annella]

I've read so many posts back and forth from QON, Falconer02, and others about their atheist beliefs.  That would be great if you wouldn't get so nasty about it, or revert to intimidation tactics, name calling, etc.  (Christians "slime around"?)......please

I'm not an atheist, though my beliefs run somewhat parallel so that's why I constantly find myself arguing for them. And, as nasty as it sounds, some christians do slime around. Tod Bentley? Yikesssssss!  lol

Excuse me for putting a label on you....Atheist

There you go again "lumping" ALL Christians in your hard wired stereotype you "perceive" them to be.  Doesn't sound like free thinking at all.  There are exceptions.  How about the concept of a pure original application to begin with.  Not all Godly movements sprung up from a mother collective.

BUT......your still asking proof of the existence of God.  I guess what I'm posting here is what is the atheists main objective.  You accuse us of trying to assimilate people into Christianity.  What are your objectives?  What is your motivation to talk to people about the belief in atheism?  Are you not trying to convert, or assimilate?

If I may speak for their side in full as it is the same motive as mine, it is not to convert. James Randi is a perfect example of what the "main objective" is-  the aim is to promote critical thinking by reaching out to the public and media with reliable information about paranormal and supernatural ideas so widespread in our society today. Why do we do this? Because this thought process extends greater than just religion- it dives into politics, philosophies, lifestyles, etc. It's just to insert free-thought where there needs to be.

Oh, so inserting free-thought into the masses about paranormal and supernatural ideas is okay, but say someone like me inserting hope to someone ready to slit their wrists is "forcing" them to assimilate?  Your statement is hypocritical in origin.  Your actually smoothing over the concept of mind control, and relying on the already "biased' media to help with the process?  I can relate instances I've witnessed that can blow paranormal and supernatural off the chart, and it has to do with what's happening today with applying concepts from an "old fashioned" Book and it's truths.

Politics, philosophies, and lifestyles, can be considered religions in themselves. They have their devotees and followers.  QON indicated that we (Christians) hold back society moving forward.  Wow, what a power we've become to be reckoned with.  Move forward to what?  Mind control, brain washing?  The very thing your accusing us of doing, your trying to implement yourselves.  Surely you can see the parallel here.

[Annella]

It is you who are naive. You have a hard time grasping the concept of personal, free will choice.  Your life is set in stone depending on what is in your heart and how you make your choices.  Like Annella, I could also help expand on this with the Bible (God's Word) but you would not believe it anyway. God is not going to beat you on the head because you do or will not accept Him.  He is disappointed, of course, but once again, YOU make your OWN choice - HE is NOT going to make it for you.

I think you can't grasp the very essence of the original argument. If your god is all-knowing (he knows the entire timelime already --past, present, and future-- the absence of choice for us in the big picture of things), he knows what everyone will choose to do. Knowing your creations are going to fail (climb up the ladder), suffer for eternity (fall onto the stove), and allowing it to happen is both lazy and evil. Any loving individual would turn off the stove or remove that needless pathway completely so the child would not climb and fall onto it.

I admit I don't understand why He allows it to happen.  I just know that He is the Creator and has reasons for it that ultimately at the end we will all know.  So, until then, my aim is to introduce Him to others, and let them make their own free-will choice about their own eternity.

You go girlfriend!  Sometimes we don't know why something is allowed to happen or happens.  We can "glimpse" the big picture though (see through a glass darkly), and no way are we "hoodwinked" into the falsehood that this is all there is.  All the intricate details of existence for nothing....um, yeah, we're the ones delusional.

[jcribb16]

Posted by: Annella:   You go girlfriend!  Sometimes we don't know why something is allowed to happen or happens.  We can "glimpse" the big picture though, and no way are we "hoodwinked" into the falsehood that this is all there is.  All the intricate details of existence for nothing....um, yeah, we're the ones delusional.

 
Thanks, Annella!  It's true we don't understand a lot of His ways, but I do know He has a most loving side as well as a jealous side.  Hopefully, one day, things will become clear for us.  I stand by my decision of my choice for God, and will defend Him as much as I am able! 

[Falconer02]

Excuse me for putting a label on you....Atheist

Hmm? You made a mistake on the label. I don't care!

There you go again "lumping" ALL Christians in your hard wired stereotype you "perceive" them to be.  Doesn't sound like free thinking at all.  There are exceptions.  How about the concept of a pure original application to begin with.  Not all Godly movements sprung up from a mother collective.

The quote you took from me on this was a joke. Not all christians are "slimy", but the ones nowadays like Tom Bentley...wow. I don't understand how anyone could follow a man like that. But if you're referring about the origin of christianity and the evolution of it, yeah. Plenty of gaps and slime in there.

Oh, so inserting free-thought into the masses about paranormal and supernatural ideas is okay, but say someone like me inserting hope to someone ready to slit their wrists is "forcing" them to assimilate?  Your statement is hypocritical in origin. Your actually smoothing over the concept of mind control, and relying on the already "biased' media to help with the process?

Yes unfortunately it is forcing the individual to assimilate. You're ultimately introducing a fantasy to someone who is already experiencing traumatic things. You take advantage of a troubled mind so they favor your belief system. I understand your intentions are good, but ultimately you would be assimilating them with blind faith if you add/bait your religious beliefs on their troubles. There are several different routes to take on a situation like that. Your beliefs aren't the only one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsSdLD_YodQ  

I can relate instances I've witnessed that can blow paranormal and supernatural off the chart, and it has to do with what's happening today with applying concepts from an "old fashioned" Book and it's truths.

I doubt your supernatual occurences completely.

Politics, philosophies, and lifestyles, can be considered religions in themselves. They have their devotees and followers.  QON indicated that we (Christians) hold back society moving forward.  Wow, what a power we've become to be reckoned with.  Move forward to what?  Mind control, brain washing?  The very thing your accusing us of doing, your trying to implement yourselves.  Surely you can see the parallel here.

Move forward to what? Reality. Getting rid of superstitions and delusions of the past that already have most of this country under an old-timey brain washing. To say the introduction of freethought/rationality/logic is a way of implementing mind-control is just ridiculous.

Edit: Queen made a comment on your post a little further below

[Falconer02]

I admit I don't understand why He allows it to happen.  I just know that He is the Creator and has reasons for it that ultimately at the end we will all know.  So, until then, my aim is to introduce Him to others, and let them make their own free-will choice about their own eternity.  

So you don't understand your god (even though you've personalized him with human traits) and just accept the mission parameters?

All the intricate details of existence for nothing....um, yeah, we're the ones delusional.

What are you talking about? This is nihilism. Not atheism. And if you think nihilists are delusional, I highly suggest you look at some of those myths you believe in that holy book of yours.

[amyrouse]

You choose the Devil or God...it is that simple! You choose to be a child of God's or the Devil's. God knows, yes, but you don't and since you don't know, you have your own choices to make...that is your free will...

I don't think its either one or the other for them.  By not choosing g-d, they are not de facto choosing the devil.  Many who do not choose g-d lead moral lives...they just don't use the Bible as their moral compass.

I don't think God makes people other than Adam & Eve but what he does is gives all those being born a chance through his son to have everlasting life. He gives you a soul.

God will not force you to worship him, yes there is a consequence.

Just like a cop can't force you to obey the laws but there is a consequence if you don't.

There is a good reply.  I like seeing this from you, Marie.  I hope to see more of the same from you.   

[queenofnines]

I don't imagine you will find a credible scientist...even a materialistic one that will assert any definitive statement that the mind is purely physical.

Where I stand is that it seems like we have some amount of free will, but I don't think the explanation for this is the god of the talking snake and cursed fruit.  I don't see what physical law directly dictates a simple choice; also, even if we had a supercomputer that could predict our future behavior, having access to the results of the printout would give us some amount of power to change what happens (unless the supercomputer included that, too, which seems far-fetched).

As for WHY physical beings can be conscious/aware and make some level of choices...I guess I assume there are some mechanics behind it that we don't yet understand that allow for that.  I don't think it's fair to be on lockdown with a theory like determinism quite yet; how do we know some degree of free will can't exist without god?  The universe is full of strange and wondrous things...just because there is a strict equation for gravity and the speed of light doesn't necessarily mean there is a strict equation for human thinking and behavior.

That's just my two cents on it.  Like Christians, I bring "personal life experience" into my argument for my beliefs (why I think we have some free will).  The difference between my label of personal experience and a believer's, however, is mine is based on the observation of reality and lessons learned, whereas a god person's personal experience is usually based on spooky, superstitious coincidences.  Whether this "personal life experience" is ultimately a delusion or not, though, has yet to be proven.  

They say God exists outside of the natural therefore he cannot exist.

And theists have to believe in some kind of dualism for god to be true.  This being that the supernatural can co-exist with the natural, a state which also seems like it would break the laws of physics - just like your free will vs. determinism argument.  What do you think?

they develop this idea of a multi verse and some kind of mother universe which churns out other universes?? Where did the original universe come from? If something had a beginning and therefore had to have a cause....you are eventually going to get to SOMETHING that is eternal and therefore NOT NATURAL by definition. You are going into serious rank speculation here with the multi universe idea. This is NOT scientific fact and it contradicts the very idea that God's eternal nature is so unbelievable. And it's very convenient to make such a theory that is completely unprovable.

I can be at peace with not having all of the answers for ultimate origins and whatnot.  I think it's unrealistic to expect that these sort of discoveries won't take a great deal of time, if we ever find the final answer at all.  Multi-universes are just speculation, not theory or fact.  Speculation is all scientists can go off of right now pre-Big Bang.  

As for the universe being eternal or not eternal, whatever the ultimate reality is, it doesn't necessarily mean a god had anything to do with it.  We have to look at where the evidence points and never just "settle" on this magical concept of an Ultimate Intelligence.  God's intelligence would have to be infinitely more complex than the universe, and yet you're okay without having a solid explanation for that?

Yes, but maybe your genes made you say it so I would shut up!  

I agree, it seems ridiculous to just say, "My genes made me do it!" for everything.  Got in a fight with your spouse?  Sorry, it was pre-destined!  

[queenofnines]

someone like me inserting hope to someone ready to slit their wrists is "forcing" them to assimilate?

Believer, to person who would have committed suicide: "Wow, don't you know you would have gone straight to hell and suffered forever by ending your own life?  Aren't you glad I 'saved' you from that??  Now all you have to do is sacrifice your only life to pleasing and worshiping this invisible zombie, Jesus; deny yourself natural pleasures and rights, try not to sin, devote at least 1/10th of your income and 48 days out of the year to your local church...and even given all this, you might STILL not pass the test and end up in hell rather than the good place - neither of which can be proven, you just got to have this thing called 'faith'.  Good luck!"

That's "hope"?!

Move forward to what?

Civil rights for all, scientific advancements not being held back, more people available to actually CONTRIBUTE to the world rather than just preaching lies or popping out babies, less atrocities in the name of religion (hate crimes, 9/11)...and so on and so forth.

[shernajwine]

And theists have to believe in some kind of dualism for god to be true.  This being that the supernatural can co-exist with the natural, a state which also seems like it would break the laws of physics - just like your free will vs. determinism argument.  What do you think?

Well, essentially it comes down to believing dualism or determinism. Either your conscious is separate from your brain, or it is merely a byproduct of your brain and therefore you are locked into determinism. I'm not sure how you can even claim atheism and effectively deny determinism, since atheism leaves only room for natural explanation, you are only left with determinism in explaining the mind/brain issue. Your denial of dualism puts you into a deterministic belief whether you like it or not.

As for the universe being eternal or not eternal, whatever the ultimate reality is, it doesn't necessarily mean a god had anything to do with it.  We have to look at where the evidence points and never just "settle" on this magical concept of an Ultimate Intelligence.  God's intelligence would have to be infinitely more complex than the universe, and yet you're okay without having a solid explanation for that?

The multi universe theory supposes that there are many universes, and that one super universe created all the other universes (this theory also serves the purpose to de-miracle-ize the extreme unlikely hood of life in our universe) but the theory still has to say that the super universe is eternal. Being eternal defies physical law and therefore by definition is a supernatural concept. You said you CAN'T believe in God....well let's put aside the Christian God and assume any sort of eternal creator here.....you CAN'T believe? Well, apparently you find it intellectually acceptable to believe in an eternal universe that has no proof and no hope of being proven. There are things that science cannot explain...(such as the "why"). Science has only the ability to explain the natural.....there are things in the past that, due to limitations, people attributed to the supernatural...and of course later science was able to give a natural explanation. That doesn't mean that the supernatural doesn't exist, it just means it is outside the ability of scientific method to explain it (just like the "why").

However, materialists are willing to accept the concept of a super universe..super universe=supernatural universe. So it's not that one CAN'T believe in a god (based on his unexplainability) it's that one WON'T.

I don't find it very difficult at all to accept that God is infinitely more complex than the universe, and I don't need a solid explanation (from science) I have a solid explanation about God's character and eternal and invisible nature from the bible. My personal experience with God, combined with sufficient evidence from science gives me unwavering faith in God. If God was completely within the realm of explanation, it wouldn't require ANY faith to believe in Him. One can have faith in God that is based on sound reasoning and logic from the natural things in this world. That is my belief.

If you believe in an eternal universe, you are placing belief in something that is unprovable, unobservable, and untestable......just like God. That requires faith. Accepting that science can't explain everything, doesn't mean you are settling for magic. Science should never cease trying to explain our world and how it operates, but you can't say that whatever science can't explain by natural processes is "magic". After all the super universe is not and would never be explained by a natural process, since it would have to exist outside of the laws of the universes it produced...it would have to be infinitely more complex than the universes it produced.

But maybe you could say, I believe in a "magical" God and you believe in a "magical" universe ( The universe is full of strange and wondrous things)? I guess if you like the term magic...then it's just a difference of opinion of where the magic comes from??

You are willing to accept an idea that is unexplainable and un-falsifiable, and revere the universe for its "strange and wonderful" characteristics. But to believe in an unexplainable strange and wonderful God...no that would be intellectual suicide!

[jcribb16]

I admit I don't understand why He allows it to happen.  I just know that He is the Creator and has reasons for it that ultimately at the end we will all know.  So, until then, my aim is to introduce Him to others, and let them make their own free-will choice about their own eternity.  

So you don't understand your god (even though you've personalized him with human traits) and just accept the mission parameters?

If I were to truly understand my God, then I would be as all-knowing as Him.  Obviously, we are not all-knowing and that's why we Christians have faith (trust in what you cannot see.)  I continue my stance no matter what you debate me with.  While I'm at it, nobody knows everything about everything, especially the unknown ahead.  If you have faith in any god, yourself, do you truly know that god inside and out?  No, because then you would be absolutely perfect, and all-knowing.

[ButterflyWings]

Is it me or has Maire changed her opinion a lot in this post..

I was enjoying the replies and what this topic was about..

Then I felt like I was going crazy with how back and forth Marie was..

What is your belief?? Are you lost?? Or what??

Now that I feel a little less sane...

Here is a few question's for Christians I really wanna know...

Why is questioning God wrong??

Why is people who think and live outside the box and question religion headed for Hell or being coaxed by devil??

Why not saying any of you are but why are Christians so pushy and closed minded and judgmental??

Why do so many preachers and televangelists use scare tactics and end up crooks??

Last question...Why try to save what you deem as people who you think are wrong why live life your way and let them find their own way??

[Falconer02]

If I were to truly understand my God, then I would be as all-knowing as Him.  Obviously, we are not all-knowing and that's why we Christians have faith (trust in what you cannot see.)  While I'm at it, nobody knows everything about everything, especially the unknown ahead.  If you have faith in any god, yourself, do you truly know that god inside and out?  No, because then you would be absolutely perfect, and all-knowing.

But, with the criteria given, your god points to being imperfect. Mainly for having such primitive human emotions and poor decision making skills. To just lie on the foundation of "god is mysterious so we don't know why he does stuff" seems so careless and ignorant of reality. Blind faith is only looked at as a piety within religion, but overall is a very dangerous ideal to carry since it has you trust in something you cannot see. I'm sure you've heard of the good ol' Nigerian scam artists that send those emails out saying things around the lines of "This guy that you've never heard of had a tie to your bloodline. He died and within his will he left you 2 million dollars. Please give us your information so we can send it to you." You've never seen these people, you've never heard of this apparent family member, and you have no proof that this money exists. If you had never heard of this scam, it would take blind faith to give them your information.

I continue my stance no matter what you debate me with.

Hey, food for thought.

Then I felt like I was going crazy with how back and forth Marie was..

She's crazy and does this in practically every thread. It is best you ignore those posts-- it's much easier to stay within the topic at hand.

Here is a few question's for Christians I really wanna know...

I'm sure you know the answers to most of these already.

Why try to save what you deem as people who you think are wrong why live life your way and let them find their own way??

This one I have trouble with too.

[queenofnines]

Your denial of dualism puts you into a deterministic belief whether you like it or not.

And that may be so.  In any event, we all live our lives like determinism isn't true, which is interesting.  Given the choice between determinism and some evil guy with a pitchfork running around wreaking havoc, determinism seems a lot more plausible.

Being eternal defies physical law and therefore by definition is a supernatural concept.

Says who?  This isn't fact...

That doesn't mean that the supernatural doesn't exist, it just means it is outside the ability of scientific method to explain it

How convenient.  How can you be sure that there is supernatural going on in your life, then?  A scientist can't detect it, but you can?

super universe=supernatural universe. So it's not that one CAN'T believe in a god (based on his unexplainability) it's that one WON'T.

Labeling an eternal universe "not natural" is a false assertion.  Again, the god you are arguing for is one that's obviously made up...I can't and won't believe in fantasy just to satisfy any fears about life's "purpose".

If God was completely within the realm of explanation, it wouldn't require ANY faith to believe in Him.

That's a pretty poor excuse, given that god created a world that appears to disprove him at every turn (invisibility, dinosaurs, evolution, the problem of evil, The Big Bang, logic).  Just how much faith does he expect me to have??

If you believe in an eternal universe, you are placing belief in something that is unprovable, unobservable, and untestable......just like God. That requires faith.

Whoever said with 100% certainty that they're going to blow themselves up, circumcise their daughter, stone people to death, go on Crusades, or fly planes into buildings over the belief in a cyclic universe?  NO ONE.  Scientists don't know, but they're working on it.  Religion, on the other hand, goes off the deep end in thinking IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS.  The Big Bang has positive evidence in its favor while a personal creator god has negative evidence for it.  Neither scenario is a certainty.

[jcribb16]

If I were to truly understand my God, then I would be as all-knowing as Him.  Obviously, we are not all-knowing and that's why we Christians have faith (trust in what you cannot see.)  While I'm at it, nobody knows everything about everything, especially the unknown ahead.  If you have faith in any god, yourself, do you truly know that god inside and out?  No, because then you would be absolutely perfect, and all-knowing.

But, with the criteria given, your god points to being imperfect. Mainly for having such primitive human emotions and poor decision making skills. To just lie on the foundation of "god is mysterious so we don't know why he does stuff" seems so careless and ignorant of reality. Blind faith is only looked at as a piety within religion, but overall is a very dangerous ideal to carry since it has you trust in something you cannot see. I'm sure you've heard of the good ol' Nigerian scam artists that send those emails out saying things around the lines of "This guy that you've never heard of had a tie to your bloodline. He died and within his will he left you 2 million dollars. Please give us your information so we can send it to you." You've never seen these people, you've never heard of this apparent family member, and you have no proof that this money exists. If you had never heard of this scam, it would take blind faith to give them your information.

  Quote:
"[“But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means” (1 Corinthians 2:14).]" continued in next post.

[jcribb16]

continued in response to Falconer:

"[Predestination is defined as the act of predestinating, which is an action of God -- who is eternal and foreordains what comes to pass on earth. This idea is repugnant to some. The idea that an entity has the right to ordain what happens on earth is something that man in his natural state has rebelled against from the dawn of time. However, the Old Testament starts with, "In the beginning, God. . ." This is an unambiguous statement. God existed before, continues to exist and will always exist (Revelation 1:4). God has the sovereign right of creation over the earth and man and He makes no apologies for saying, "Thus saith the LORD!" This statement does not require man's understanding or acceptance to be true.]"

"[Predestination is the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation -- called the elect. Again, this is a concept that many see as somehow unfair. However, all of the attributes of God allow Him to know history in advance. Therefore, it can be said that we are "preordained" or elected by pre-knowledge because time has no rule over God. But, didn't God give man volition (exercising one’s own will)? The answer to that is yes, however, since God is all knowing He already knows the outcome of the choices men will make and He uses those choices to bring about His purpose.]"

"[God has made salvation possible for anyone who wants it. He already knows who will accept His plan of salvation. This does not negate man's choice; rather it is confirmation of God's grace that some do choose salvation. Predestination means to mark out or determine before hand. Predestination may raise some intellectual problems, but that is because man tries to wrap his finite mind around an infinite God. However, those who accept the gift of salvation become the “elect” of God.]" 

 These are things I've tried saying in my own words.  This quote helps to back up what I'm trying to say.  Credit is given to "All About God."