Hell is an Unattended Stove

[jcribb16]

because He is all-knowing, He knows who will and who won't accept Him.

Why do people bother to pray then?  If god is omniscient, our lives are already determined -- there is only an illusion of free will.  We can't change god's mind or the course of determined events (our lives), because to do so would invalidate god's omniscience!

Because we are the ones who are to try and introduce others to God.  How else would they know, unless given the opportunity?  That's one reason why there are missionaries across the nation and world - to introduce them to God so those that will, given the opportunity, accept Him or not.

[shernajwine]

It was beneficial to the species.  It's a natural consequence of simple things becoming more and more complex and bad replicators dying off.

That doesn't answer the question. If I had asked, WHY did human consciousness come into being...well even then your answer is an over generalization that doesn't really explain anything at all. But my question was HOW. How does evolution theory explain the appearance of consciousness in human beings. I'm not even talking about animal consciousness although that is interesting in itself but I'm speaking of a human beings ability to reason, rationalize, and have an opinion about things based on their reasoning. If evolution is "change over time" How does natural selection bring consciousness into being....seeing as how natural selection has to have something to choose from? Consciousness has nothing to do with a mutating gene...so where did it come from? Matter you say...........Matter had the potential to create the "mind".....

Clearly it had the potential, because here we are.

Oh, I'm so glad you said that. You are now no longer treating matter as atheists and naturalists treat matter, you are attributing spooky, soulish, or mental potentials to matter. This is panpsychism--the view that matter is not just inert physical stuff, but that it also contains proto-mental states. You have abandoned a strict scientific view of matter and adopted a view closer to theism than to atheism. You are saying that the world began not just with matter, but with stuff that's mental and physical at the same time.

Now here's a problem for you......if a finite mind can emerge when matter reaches a certain level of complexity, why couldn't a far greater mind--God--emerge when millions of brain states reach a greater level of consciousness? You can't just stop the process at yourself. Now granted, this isn't the "god" of Christianity I am implying here, but it does present a problem with the atheistic view.

Also, to point out another problem with your "I am my brain" philosophy. If your mind were just a function of the brain, there would be no unified self. Remember, brain function is spread through out the brain, so if you cut the brain in half, then some of that function is lost. Now you have half a person? Nobody believes that. There was a girl who lost 53% of her brain...was she 47% of a person? No, we know she's a unified self, because we know her consciousness and soul are separate entities from her brain.

Further more if consciousness is just a function of the brain, then as you said, I am my brain, and my brain functions according to the laws of chemistry and physics. The mind is to the brain as smoke is to fire. Fire causes smoke, but smoke doesn't cause anything. It's just a byproduct. Now you are locked in determinism.....the idea that every prior action affects human actions and choices. This means that human behavior is ultimately controlled by genes that control personality, by brain neurochemistry, and interactions with the environment. In its most ardent form, determinism completely denies the existence of human free will.

Well, if that's the case then I don't need to believe anything you say because it isn't necessarily the truth. You only believe what you believe because of the chemicals in your brain reacting in a certain way. :-/

Information gathered from Case for a Creator and godandscience.com

[Annella]

because He is all-knowing, He knows who will and who won't accept Him.

Why do people bother to pray then?  If god is omniscient, our lives are already determined -- there is only an illusion of free will.  We can't change god's mind or the course of determined events (our lives), because to do so would invalidate god's omniscience!

If you believed the Bible I could give you PROOF that prayer changed determined instances in the Bible.  Why God even turned back the SUN for an answer to a prayer.  Added 15 years to another man's life when God said he was going to die.  He prayed for more time and God gave it to him.

I could tell you these things and even show them to you in the Bible, but because you don't believe in the Bible, the point is moot.

[Falconer02]

No, not at all. Again, you, as an individual, have a free will choice.  It is not set in stone.  God just knows what you will do, because He is all-knowing.

If your god in ominiscient, all-powerful, perfect, etc. like your holy texts say, then he has predetermined everything for you. He knows what is going to happen. Again, you only have the illusion of free will. Everything is set in stone for you, but you do not know it. You can play the naive card, but that has very little grasp on the foundation of the original post.

I thought my dad would be one of the ones who would never accept Him.  But, God knew that eventually, with the encouragement and prayers of many, that my dad would accept Him.  None of us knew - we just kept trying. There are others, unfortunately, who, even with all the prayers and talks, will not accept Him. We are just to try. It is that person who won't accept Him, who has made his/her own choice.

Again, you use choice very naively here. If your god knows what you're going to do and just stands by without doing anything and instead relies on imperfect beings to do his job, your god is a terribly lazy, imperfect, and evil entity considering he just watches people screw up and are then scarred for eternity.

And when in Hell, all of those talks or friends/family who tried to get them to accept God, will be on that person's mind always playing like a tape.  What regret and shame that would be

Your people doom anyone who does not believe the same as you? Such tribal beliefs...you might as well just put a curse on anyone with a different outlook. What an offensive belief system.

[Falconer02]

If you believed the Bible I could give you PROOF that prayer changed determined instances in the Bible.

I could tell you these things and even show them to you in the Bible, but because you don't believe in the Bible, the point is moot.

"If you believed Mein Kampf, I could show you PROOF that Adolf Hitler really is the best thing for Germany!"
Sorry to bust in Godwin's Law, but do understand that skepticism is a very important trait while trying to find proof. If your one source is simply the basis of your belief and nothing else, this will not hold up anywhere except with the mindless minions.

[Annella]

If you believed the Bible I could give you PROOF that prayer changed determined instances in the Bible.

I could tell you these things and even show them to you in the Bible, but because you don't believe in the Bible, the point is moot.

"If you believed Mein Kampf, I could show you PROOF that Adolf Hitler really is the best thing for Germany!"
Sorry to bust in Godwin's Law, but do understand that skepticism is a very important trait while trying to find proof. If your one source is simply the basis of your belief and nothing else, this will not hold up anywhere except with the mindless minions.

Oh please......do you read my posts at all?  How insulting to insinuate this is the only source I have for my belief.  I was merely answering qon on the absurdity of prayer, and her claim it can't change anything.

Sometimes falconer02 you amaze me.  You are so rude because I don't enter in your cat and mouse games, then your rude when I do......I can't win......geez

Does your avatar run anywhere, or can I hope it might lead to the edge of a cliff?

[Annella]

Marieelissa, can you meet me on Facebook.

[Falconer02]

Oh please......do you read my posts at all?  How insulting to insinuate this is the only source I have for my belief.  I was merely answering qon on the absurdity of prayer, and her claim it can't change anything.

I must have missed them in the past. Do they all stem to the bible though?
edit: I did a quick glance through a few pages of your post history. They all seem to be biblical.
And prayer is absurd to put it on a higher level than just, say, crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. It's a technical argument probably meant for another thread.

Sometimes falconer02 you amaze me.  You are so rude because I don't enter in your cat and mouse games, then your rude when I do......I can't win......geez

You rarely enter the argument; you only post to those who have the same beliefs as you or you try to convert them on the spot.

Does your avatar run anywhere, or can I hope it might lead to the edge of a cliff?

I lllllooooovvvveeee christian-extremist behavior

[Annella]

Oh please......do you read my posts at all?  How insulting to insinuate this is the only source I have for my belief.  I was merely answering qon on the absurdity of prayer, and her claim it can't change anything.

I must have missed them in the past. Do they all stem to the bible though?
edit: I did a quick glance through a few pages of your post history. They all seem to be biblical.

Sometimes falconer02 you amaze me.  You are so rude because I don't enter in your cat and mouse games, then your rude when I do......I can't win......geez

You rarely enter the argument; you only post to those who have the same beliefs as you or you try to convert them on the spot.

Does your avatar run anywhere, or can I hope it might lead to the edge of a cliff?

I lllllooooovvvveeee christian-extremist behavior

Okay, I have to apologize to the Avatar comment.

Why oh why should I post anything to anyone who does not believe the Word of God?  It's beating the air.  It's the one thing I don't do.  As far as trying to convert anyone, if I only post to people with the same beliefs (as you say), how can I convert someone who is already converted.....lol

I do put the information out there, and people can make up their own minds.  If people ask me a question about the Bible, they deserve an honest "researched" answer.  People do ask me questions.  I believe in God, I believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God,  I believe I will be judged by that Word one day.......but, the reason I serve God is because I LOVE Him.  I choose to serve Him.  I have found Him to be True and Faithful, and His Word True and Faithful.  I have a personal relationship with the lover of my soul....and my Creator.  My faith has stood the test of time over the last 42 years and I've found God's Word to be Truth.

I will do everything that is possible to help people find their way to a God that loves them.  If that doesn't meet with your approval......well it's a good thing I don't need it.  Nobody is being forced to live for God.  I've said this a many times.  You choose which way you want to go.  I choose mine.

[Falconer02]

Okay, I have to apologize to the Avatar comment.

Pfffft! No need. It's all gravy!

Why oh why should I post anything to anyone who does not believe the Word of God?  It's beating the air.  It's the one thing I don't do.  As far as trying to convert anyone, if I only post to people with the same beliefs (as you say), how can I convert someone who is already converted.....lol

Maybe you would learn something about your own beliefs from an outside-of-the-box source if they argue back with a contradiction of philosophies. This is what happened to me after all; I realized there was more out there than just christianity after arguing with friends of different ideas. And when I looked back after doing research over a number of years, I saw very little uniqueness aside from popularity and historic bullying with christianity. And as far as converting, you only post to the believers and to the non-believers that are questioning it-- there were 2 separate groups. I worded it badly though.

I do put the information out there, and people can make up their own minds.  If people ask me a question about the Bible, they deserve an honest "researched" answer.  People do ask me questions.  I believe in God, I believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God,  I believe I will be judged by that Word one day.......but, the reason I serve God is because I LOVE Him.  I choose to serve Him.  I have found Him to be True and Faithful, and His Word True and Faithful.  I have a personal relationship with the lover of my soul....and my Creator.  My faith has stood the test of time over the last 42 years and I've found God's Word to be Truth.

Okay, I really hate to sound offensive, but if it is possible, try seeing this paragraph from an aerial, unbiased, and unbound POV. Try replacing the word "god" with another god you do not believe in and your holy text with that gods holy text. Try to see it from a perspective that is not your own. And then reread it. Does it sound foreign? Proposterous? Creepy? Hey, that's someone elses belief system out there. You act as if you have a strong loving and personal relationship with something you cannot prove to exist. I hate to attack your credibility, but this is my major concern for society in general-- putting blind faith in personalized gods without irrefutable proof of the super-natural.

I will do everything that is possible to help people find their way to a God that loves them.  If that doesn't meet with your approval......well it's a good thing I don't need it.  Nobody is being forced to live for God.

Sure they are. By guilt-tripping them. It's a rude black-or-white tactic with christianity. I do like how you say "A god" rather than "THE god". It sounds more caring to an individual questioning their beliefs to have more than 1 opportunity.

[amyrouse]

I will do everything that is possible to help people find their way to a God that loves them.  If that doesn't meet with your approval......well it's a good thing I don't need it.  Nobody is being forced to live for God.

Sure they are. By guilt-tripping them. It's a rude black-or-white tactic with christianity. I do like how you say "A god" rather than "THE god". It sounds more caring to an individual questioning their beliefs to have more than 1 opportunity.

The thing is, when it comes to someone and their religion, they see it as only one opportunity.  Many people believe theirs is the only true path to salvation (if they believe in g-d and salvation; I don't believe religion is necessary to salvation, personally.).  I'm sure you believe the same...that this is the only life we are given, and that those who are questioning need to understand this and live their one life to the fullest.  I don't see Annella trying to strike down those that believe differently; in fact, I see her answering questions to the best of her ability for those who have questions of her.  She isn't trying to convert anyone who feels strongly in their beliefs.  On the contrary, she's made herself available to those who seek her...and I see that as a good example...nothing like the Christianity of which you speak.   

[queenofnines]

That's one reason why there are missionaries across the nation and world - to introduce them to God so those that will, given the opportunity, accept Him or not.

I thought your camp says that if a person never hears of Jesus Christ, they won't automatically go to hell.  Why do missionaries risk putting people in hell then?? 

It's a valid question.  Imagine I live in some remote village, and if nobody ever came to preach the gospel, I would go to heaven because I was a decent person who lived a good life.  But let's say a missionary comes to that same village and I do hear the Word, but of no fault of my own I simply can't believe it because I wasn't raised to blindly buy into such silly concepts, your missionary is now responsible for sending an otherwise heaven-bound me to hell!

[queenofnines]

Does your avatar run anywhere, or can I hope it might lead to the edge of a cliff?

Oooh...ha ha ha!  I beat Falconer laughed his *bleep* off when he read this!!

Leave Mega Man out of this!!!  He's after your time, he never did anything to you! 

But to answer your question, yes Mega Man is prone to falling off cliffs - that game is hard!

[Falconer02]

The thing is, when it comes to someone and their religion, they see it as only one opportunity.  Many people believe theirs is the only true path to salvation (if they believe in g-d and salvation; I don't believe religion is necessary to salvation, personally.).  I'm sure you believe the same...that this is the only life we are given, and that those who are questioning need to understand this and live their one life to the fullest.

Well I understand what you're getting at. I'm not saying my way is the best/only way though. Though miniscule, my belief leaves room for every religion. All that it asks for is proof of any of them if you want to have any decent basis for someone to believe-- this is why I usually end up arguing when people explain their ways and say it is undeniable evidence that they're right. When people think they're right and they parade it around as so, I'm just the skeptic of those claims.

I don't see Annella trying to strike down those that believe differently; in fact, I see her answering questions to the best of her ability for those who have questions of her.  She isn't trying to convert anyone who feels strongly in their beliefs.  On the contrary, she's made herself available to those who seek her...and I see that as a good example...nothing like the Christianity of which you speak.

I'll play the eye of the beholder card. I suppose it depends how you read it. Like her last post directed at Queen.

But to answer your question, yes Mega Man is prone to falling off cliffs - that game is hard!

Very. And that's why I love 'em!

[queenofnines]

my question was HOW.

I thought my "generalization" answered the how, but you think it only answered the WHY?  I don't think what I said very much answered the why at all, actually.  This is because the universe cannot give the average person a "why" that will satisfy them.  It is asking the wrong question to ask why.  

The universe has no goal or purpose; there is no "why" when we get down to the base-level of things.  That's just how they are.  You think this way about your god, so is what I'm explaining here really that much of a leap?

How does evolution theory explain the appearance of consciousness in human beings.

"Consciousness can be viewed from the standpoints of evolutionary psychology or evolutionary biology approach as an adaptation because it is a trait that increases fitness...

The proximate causes for consciousness, i.e. how consciousness evolved in animals, is a subject considered by Sir John C. Eccles in his paper 'Evolution of consciousness.'  He argues that special anatomical and physical properties of the mammalian cerebral cortex gave rise to consciousness.  Budiansky, by contrast, limits consciousness to humans, proposing that human consciousness may have evolved as an adaptation to anticipate and counter social strategems of other humans, predators, and prey.  Alternatively, it has been argued that the recursive circuitry underwriting consciousness is much more primitive, having evolved initially in premammalian species because it improves the capacity for interaction with both social and natural environments by providing an energy-saving 'neutral' gear in an otherwise energy-expensive motor output machine." ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness#Evolutionary_psychology

Matter you say...........Matter had the potential to create the "mind".....

Yes.

You are now no longer treating matter as atheists and naturalists treat matter, you are attributing spooky, soulish, or mental potentials to matter.

What I meant was, when we think about things that seem improbable, it's kind of silly to get THAT hung up on how unlikely something may seem, if it is indeed the reality we are witnessing.  You and I being alive (in our current states), for example.  It's highly improbable that one particular sperm fused with one particular egg at one particular time under one particular set of circumstances.

You are saying that the world began not just with matter, but with stuff that's mental and physical at the same time.

The mind IS physical.

There was a girl who lost 53% of her brain...was she 47% of a person? No, we know she's a unified self, because we know her consciousness and soul are separate entities from her brain.

Consciousness most certainly isn't!  How could a doctor ever put a person under, then, if consciousness is separate from the brain?  They also do brain scans that show lighted areas as a person thinks different things.

As for the half-brain girl, as long as she didn't lose the parts of her brain where memory and personality are stored, sure, she's a full "person" in the colloquial sense.  You know the brain is divided into separate regions for different things, right?

Now you are locked in determinism.....the idea that every prior action affects human actions and choices. This means that human behavior is ultimately controlled by genes that control personality, by brain neurochemistry, and interactions with the environment. In its most ardent form, determinism completely denies the existence of human free will.

Wow, I'm surprised you would bring this one up (unless you just got it off your website).  Most people have no clue what determinism is.

For the record, my husband is a hard determinist - exactly what you state.  And I can see how determinism might be true, given that everything is physical.  I'm on the fence about this one, because there really seems like there is something "more" than our whole futures - down to our very thoughts - being already determined.  This isn't proof for god, it's proof for either 1) I am just naive and don't want to accept determinism or 2) some amount of choice exists within the confines of the physical (not TOTAL choice, of course, because I do believe genes/environment play a large role).