Hell is an Unattended Stove

[queenofnines]

Hell is an Unattended Stove?
by Astreja

You've probably heard various Christians make the following statement, or a variation on it:

"God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there."

Let's take a close look at the above assertion.

First of all, there's an implicit assumption that an individual will have an actual choice to go to either the Nice Place or the Not-So-Nice place, somehow overriding the Divine Will of the omnipotent and omniscient Biblegod. This flies in the face of at least one variant of Christianity, Calvinism, which asserts that Biblegod has already picked out the "saved" and discarded everyone else.

Secondly, it is also assumed that Biblegod will not only know about this person's "choice" but knew about it in advance, and permits it to happen anyway. The usual excuse given for this is that Biblegod does not want to impose upon our free will.

Does anyone else see the problem with this?

I present the analogy of the Parent and the Unattended Stove. A small child toddles into the kitchen. In that kitchen is a stove with all the burners turned to 'High', and a ladder conveniently located right next to the stove. The child climbs the ladder, and falls off it onto the blazing stove.

Oh, and did I mention that the Parent is standing just footsteps away, washing dishes in the sink?

At this point, what Christian apologists would have us believe is that this is somehow all the fault of the child -- Who is now on fire and screaming in agony. To you, ladies and gentlemen, I just have this to say:

What kind of parent would go to the stove, turn all the burners on, put a ladder beside the stove, watch their own child climb that ladder, allow the child to fall onto the stove, and then just stand there for eternity and let the child scream?

The "free will" argument is a red herring, and a convenient excuse for not confronting the immorality of Biblegod. Any parent worthy of the name would rescue the child at the first possible opportunity, without even considering the child's "free will." Better yet, a conscientious parent would childproof the kitchen to prevent such catastrophes from happening in the first place -- And again, "free will" has nothing to do with it. It's just good parenting.

You do not do your god honour with this kind of argument, by the way. It makes your invisible friend look like a maniac, and it makes you look like a thoughtless dolt.

Please give serious consideration to the above, and stop making excuses for the inexcusable.

http://new.exchristian.net/2010/05/hell-is-unattended-stove.html

[jordandog]

Love the analogy. Plain and simple to understand - and it fits. I am curious to see if and how this will be deconstructed, because I don't truthfully see how it can be.

[shernajwine]

By Rich Deem
Christianity claims that God knows everything. The theological term is "omniscience." There are some implications of this doctrine that non-believers find troubling or even unacceptable to the concept of a loving God. If God knows everything, then He knows that some people whom He creates will end up in hell. Why would God create people who are destined for hell? It turns out that there are many unstated assumptions in this question, which are not valid for Christianity. A related question, "Why wouldn't God just create everyone to enjoy the glory of heaven?" will also be answered.

Destined for hell ≠ Predestined for hell

The first, and most prevalent, incorrect assumption is that a person who is destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability. You can prove this to yourself. Determine two possible courses of action. They don't have to be big decisions, just any two possible actions. Assign each action to either "heads" or "tails." Flip the coin and do what whatever course chance decided. You can do this as many times as needed to determine that you do, indeed, have free will. Occasionally, do the opposite of what the coins tell you. Has God prevented you from doing anything? No!

God alone created you

The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?

This is not to say that God is not involved at all in the creation of life. The Bible says that once a new human life is made God creates a spirit within the fetus1 and knows us at that point, even calling some to serve Him from the womb.2

People destined for hell have no earthly purpose

The third incorrect assumption is that a person destined for hell has no purpose in this life. This is also false. All people living have a purpose. Some people destined for hell will save other's lives, either intentionally or unintentionally. Others destined for hell will be helped, encouraged, and witnessed to by others who are destined for heaven. Those who follow God's plan are provided opportunities to help others in their spiritual path. If all people were on the same spiritual path, there would be nobody for God's people to help. God says that all are without excuse, so He provides witnesses of his plan to give them a chance to change their minds.

Rewards and punishment

Another possible assumption is that the only purpose of this life is to choose to follow God or reject Him. This is also false. This life is used as a measure of reward and punishment. All who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will go to heaven, but the amount of reward in heaven will be directly related to how closely each one followed God's will in his life. Likewise, all those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell and will be punished to the degree of how much evil they committed in their life. This is why God allows people to make their own choices.

Why wouldn't God just create everyone to enjoy the glory of heaven?

Skeptics might claim that God, in knowing all the choices a person would make, would not need to create all the people who would end up in hell. This question also has some underlying assumptions. The assumption is that since God knows all the answers, He would have no need of "running the experiment."

Just put the good people directly into heaven?

The assumption that God could just put the good people directly into heaven seems to be valid for God, but has some problems when applied to humans. For some reason, skeptics leave themselves out of the equation. They want God to run the thought experiment and put those souls who would make the right choice (believe in Jesus Christ) directly into heaven and not even create those who would reject Him. The problem is that God would then be liable to the accusation of rewarding some people more than others, since reward is proportional to good deeds done in life. Since there was no real life, how could God hand out rewards? Should He tell people what they would have done and let them be content with that? How would those souls know anything about life, goodness, and doing the right thing if they had never lived before? God could be considered to be unjust, since His actions would not be based upon choices made by real characters. Would God just put those fake memories into their heads? If He did so, God would be creating deceptions, which contradicts His perfect character.

When people think deeply about their "perfect" plan about what God "should have done," they realize that there are logical problems. What most people would create, as god, would be robots, since they would have no choice at all. Ever try loving your computer? It is not a very satisfying relationship. So it would be with the robots that skeptics would send directly into heaven.


The "problems" about the loving God of Christianity posed by the skeptics rests on invalid assumptions. Based on an invalid understanding of God's foreknowledge, they seek to avoid the consequences of their free will choice by offering a "solution" that violates the perfect character of God. Therefore, the "solution" would not be a valid solution for the God of Christianity.

[queenofnines]

Sherna, that article you posted is another one of the ones I read from your favorite site.  You're free to post it, of course, but it makes me wonder if you really understand the argument against hell at all.

The first, and most prevalent, incorrect assumption is that a person who is destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God.

Pre-destined in the sense that because god is all-knowing, we are living in a DETERMINISTIC universe without free will.  There CANNOT be free will if god is omniscient -- it's logically impossible.  So either god isn't omniscient, there is no god, or we're all just puppets.  

Believers like to slime around this by saying, "Well, god knows the outcomes of each of the options, but YOU choose which option to take."    That is not the definition of ALL-knowing, sorry!

You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?

   I am VERY surprised the author chose to make this "point", because do you know what it means?  A person's "soul" is not special -- it's just a random sperm out of millions fusing with your mom's Egg of the Month.  Had your mom and dad chose not to have sex at the EXACT MOMENT that they did, "you" would not be here!!  Are you sure you want to stand behind this one, Christians?

The third incorrect assumption is that a person destined for hell has no purpose in this life.

Um, you just said no one was pre-destined for hell!  Contradiction city!

Some people destined for hell will save other's lives, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Who cares what a hell-bound person does in this life??  They're still going to burn in agony, for ever and ever!

This life is used as a measure of reward and punishment.

Sounds like a very man-made concept.  Life can be hard enough, why make it harder needlessly worrying about burning infinitely for finite crimes?

Since there was no real life, how could God hand out rewards? Should He tell people what they would have done and let them be content with that? How would those souls know anything about life, goodness, and doing the right thing if they had never lived before?

It seems to work okay for the angels, yes?  This point is called "making stuff up to explain the state of the world".

Would God just put those fake memories into their heads?

Well, we're going to have some issues in heaven regardless when it comes to forgetting about the friends/family burning in hell, becoming bored, accidentally thinking something bad (we still have free will in heaven, right?), etc.

Ever try loving your computer? It is not a very satisfying relationship.

Sure it is!  I have news for you -- our brains are nothing but computers.  And computers that we build will be smarter than us in a few years.

[shernajwine]

Your entire reply shows that you don't understand. (sigh) But I mainly posted the information for other people who read your post, so they could get both sides. I'm not in it for the argument. But I do find it amusing that you think you can have a satisfying relationship with a computer.

My brain is a computer, but my brain is not me. You can't open up my brain and know who I am. I have a mind, and it is separate from my brain. My computer does not appreciate beauty, it cannot get angry, it can't feel, it doesn't have a mind.

But if you have a loving relationship with your computer, more power to you! 

[jordandog]

Well guess what....you can stomp your feet and curse at God all you want....you're going to hell because the bible told me so! Unless you change and repent and find God, you will go.

You will have to answer to him.

If you don't believe in it...then hush, it is freedom of religion, GET OVER IT ALREADY!

So I have to think that you disagree with the person trying to help you, namely Annella, because she said today in another topic "I never tell anyone they're going to hell."
Enjoy that immense power you think you have, it's apparently greater than god's.

[Falconer02]

I always got a kick out of this argument. I recall having this with that teflon guy and he just kept doing the ol' red herring left and right. It was pretty funny.

Pre-destined in the sense that because god is all-knowing, we are living in a DETERMINISTIC universe without free will.  There CANNOT be free will if god is omniscient -- it's logically impossible.  So either god isn't omniscient, there is no god, or we're all just puppets.

Gold. I don't see how any religious mindset could argue against this and make any sound conclusions.

But I do find it amusing that you think you can have a satisfying relationship with a computer.

Someone hasn't played Left 4 Dead! lol

[queenofnines]

But I do find it amusing that you think you can have a satisfying relationship with a computer.

The Internet is awesome!  So is PC gaming.  Computers are one of man's greatest accomplishments...

My brain is a computer, but my brain is not me.

Your brain is ENTIRELY you!  That's why people who suffer from head trauma become completely different people.

You can't open up my brain and know who I am.

On the contrary, doctors can tell MANY things about you from looking at your brain.

I have a mind, and it is separate from my brain.

  Uh...no it's not.  The mind is a by-product of the chemical processes of the brain!  It resides entirely within your brain, and is therefore completely physical.

My computer does not appreciate beauty, it cannot get angry, it can't feel, it doesn't have a mind.

Given the exponential rate of the growth in technology, within a few years, there most certainly WILL be computers that are indistinguishable from human brains.  We will have robots that think they're alive and special and can feel; when that happens, how will they be any different from us?

Talk to the computer at http://www.cleverbot.com/ and you will see how far artificial intelligence has come already.  It's quite fun!

[shernajwine]

Your brain is ENTIRELY you!  That's why people who suffer from head trauma become completely different people.

Computers have artificial intelligence not intelligence.  And there's a huge difference.  There's no 'what it's like to be a computer.' A computer has no 'insides,' no awareness, no first-person point of view, no insights into problems.  A computer doesn't think, 'You know what? I now see what this multiplications problem is really like.'  A computer can engage in behavior if it's wired properly, but you've got to remember that consciousness is not the same as behavior.  Consciousness is being alive; it's what causes behavior in really conscious beings.  But what causes behavior in a computer is electric circuitry. Case for a Creator

A computer will NEVER have an individual thought process that provides an opinion based on feelings about what is beautiful, sad, ugly. A computer will never cry for no reason because of an overflow of emotion, a computer is programmed to act a certain way. It will never, no matter how technologically advanced it may be, ever be able to experience human emotions the way human's experience them.

Your materialistic view is founded on a naturalistic philosophy, not scientific fact.

Also, if you believe human consciousness is just something that happens as a natural byproduct of your brain's complexity....how do you explain it's evolution? Are you saying that prior to this level of complexity, matter contained the potential for "mind" to emerge?

And if mind emerged from matter without the direction of a superior intelligence, why should you trust anything from  your mind as being rational or true, especially in the area of theoretical thinking? An analogy would be...if you had a computer that was programmed by random forces or by non-rational laws without a mind being behind it.  Would you trust a printout from that machine? I wouldn't.

[jcribb16]

The first, and most prevalent, incorrect assumption is that a person who is destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God.

Pre-destined in the sense that because god is all-knowing, we are living in a DETERMINISTIC universe without free will.  There CANNOT be free will if god is omniscient -- it's logically impossible.  So either god isn't omniscient, there is no god, or we're all just puppets.

True, God is all-knowing, but we aren't.  No one knows who is going to hell or heaven until they each personally make that choice.  This does not mean God has pre-destined you to go to heaven or hell.  Everyone has free will of choice - it is their personal decision.  It just means that God already knows who will and who won't (He knows what choice each person will make.)  Since we don't know who will and who won't, we work for God to try and encourage people to make their choice (hopefully, the eternal life in heaven.)

[Falconer02]

True, God is all-knowing, but we aren't. No one knows who is going to hell or heaven until they each personally make that choice.   This does not mean God has pre-destined you to go to heaven or hell.Everyone has free will of choice - it is their personal decision. It just means that God already knows who will and who won't (He knows what choice each person will make.)   Since we don't know who will and who won't, we work for God to try and encourage people to make their choice (hopefully, the eternal life in heaven.)[/  

This is predestination though. You're going back and forth in this paragraph. "God knows your destiny, but he has not predestined you!" If your god knows, your god has already predestined you. You misunderstand that this choice you refer to is an illusion when you introduce your god into the mix. Thus the first-post argument still stands.

[queenofnines]

Also, if you believe human consciousness is just something that happens as a natural byproduct of your brain's complexity....how do you explain it's evolution?

It was beneficial to the species.  It's a natural consequence of simple things becoming more and more complex and bad replicators dying off.

Are you saying that prior to this level of complexity, matter contained the potential for "mind" to emerge?

Clearly it had the potential, because here we are.  Just because our species is tops in intelligence is really not something to be surprised about.  Should we fret over why the cheetah is the fastest, or why giraffes have the longest neck?  We're smart because it was beneficial to our species to be smart.  That is all.

Good video on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYybiwLRgfI

And if mind emerged from matter without the direction of a superior intelligence, why should you trust anything from your mind as being rational or true, especially in the area of theoretical thinking? An analogy would be...if you had a computer that was programmed by random forces or by non-rational laws without a mind being behind it.  Would you trust a printout from that machine? I wouldn't.

And why does god's intelligence not require an explanation?  It's the magical trump card.  

Natural selection isn't random...what isn't beneficial for the species dies out.  ALL animals have some degree of consciousness.

As for trusting our brains, we might be living in the freaking Matrix.  But it's not very helpful to put all of our eggs in that basket; the senses for an average person are reliable enough to have a working picture of reality.  We can confirm and observe things together.

It just means that God already knows who will and who won't (He knows what choice each person will make.)

It's already settled, then!  Each of our destinies are written in stone, and none of us can do anything to change it!!

[jcribb16]

True, God is all-knowing, but we aren't. No one knows who is going to hell or heaven until they each personally make that choice.   This does not mean God has pre-destined you to go to heaven or hell.Everyone has free will of choice - it is their personal decision. It just means that God already knows who will and who won't (He knows what choice each person will make.)   Since we don't know who will and who won't, we work for God to try and encourage people to make their choice (hopefully, the eternal life in heaven.)[/  

This is predestination though. You're going back and forth in this paragraph. "God knows your destiny, but he has not predestined you!" If your god knows, your god has already predestined you. You misunderstand that this choice you refer to is an illusion when you introduce your god into the mix. Thus the first-post argument still stands.

No, I'm not going back and forth on this.  It is true God knows your decision you will make (for or against Him) but He has not pre-destined you.  He wants all to accept Him. But, because He is all-knowing, He knows who will and who won't accept Him.  We, however, don't know the individuals' choices, so we are to do what He asks us to do for Him: "..go into the highway and hedges"; try to introduce others to Him. That is how people come to be introduced to Him and make their own choice.

[queenofnines]

because He is all-knowing, He knows who will and who won't accept Him.

Why do people bother to pray then?  If god is omniscient, our lives are already determined -- there is only an illusion of free will.  We can't change god's mind or the course of determined events (our lives), because to do so would invalidate god's omniscience!

[jcribb16]

Quote:
It just means that God already knows who will and who won't (He knows what choice each person will make.)[/quote]

It's already settled, then!  Each of our destinies are written in stone, and none of us can do anything to change it!!

No, not at all. Again, you, as an individual, have a free will choice.  It is not set in stone.  God just knows what you will do, because He is all-knowing. Ex.:  I thought my dad would be one of the ones who would never accept Him.  But, God knew that eventually, with the encouragement and prayers of many, that my dad would accept Him.  None of us knew - we just kept trying.  There are others, unfortunately, who, even with all the prayers and talks, will not accept Him. We are just to try. It is that person who won't accept Him, who has made his/her own choice.   And when in Hell, all of those talks or friends/family who tried to get them to accept God, will be on that person's mind always playing like a tape.  What regret and shame that would be.