Hell is an Unattended Stove

[queenofnines]

Wait a minute qon, don't you have sources you go to to lend "credence" to your points of atheism?

I mainly post in my own words, in case you haven't noticed.  Occasionally I link to a relevant video or website, and yes, some of them are by atheists, but not ALL.

Or maybe it's because she CAN verbally "spar" on a intelligent level on these subject that have you on the defensive.

I've found that most of what I'm "sparring" with is written by somebody else lately (mainly that godandscience website), with Sherna's thoughts sprinkled in very lightly.  So yes, I'm a bit bothered when I see someone copy-pasting an authority figure's take on a topic in place of the actual poster's own thoughts.  It's not quite a fair or productive argument when I'm not even arguing with YOU!

It's not fair to "slight" her research as petty and non essential.

It's not non-essential; I've pointed out that I think one particular website she uses is very slick (not in a good way) and convincing to a non-critical reader.

I appreciate the time and effort she's put into challenging me; however, part of me feels she is glossing over the logical problems of the Christian god and relying too heavily on other Christians' words in place of her own thoughts.

[Annella]

I mainly post in my own words, in case you haven't noticed.  Occasionally I link to a relevant video or website, and yes, some of them are by atheists, but not ALL.

Ditto for her.  She doesn't get all her info. just from Christian websites.

I've found that most of what I'm "sparring" with is written by somebody else lately (mainly that godandscience website), with Sherna's thoughts sprinkled in very lightly.  So yes, I'm a bit bothered when I see someone copy-pasting an authority figure's take on a topic in place of the actual poster's own thoughts.  It's not quite a fair or productive argument when I'm not even arguing with YOU!

So what I'm hearing is you don't like her posting some of her thoughts she found "verbatim", so she can get the full essence over, of what your debating?  Foul!!  You have posted plenty from other sources.

No your not arguing with me, but your friends jump in anytime they want on your posts, or when your in debate with someone else.  I'm not allowed to "help" my friend out a little bit?  Kind of double standard, don't ya think?  To coin your words on another thread...."Come on, it's just a forum".

It's not non-essential; I've pointed out that I think one particular website she uses is very slick (not in a good way) and convincing to a non-critical reader.

I appreciate the time and effort she's put into challenging me; however, part of me feels she is glossing over the logical problems of the Christian god and relying too heavily on other Christians' words in place of her own thoughts.

If you don't think it's non-essential, then what's your beef?  Or did she get to a level that your not prepared to debate?  What may look "slick" from your point of view, may be concise and informative to her.  She certainly is not "critical" in her views on any level, nor would she pick up such anywhere.  It is information afterall, subject and open to debate and interpretation is it not?

she "glosses over" nothing.  She does her research.  I get it though......you don't like WHERE she's getting her info. Kind of like we all have to use what's acceptable and must pass your muster in order to be verifiable or satisfactory in your opinion?

[queenofnines]

I'm not allowed to "help" my friend out a little bit?  Kind of double standard, don't ya think?  To coin your words on another thread...."Come on, it's just a forum".

Damn Internet...when I said, "It's not quite a fair or productive argument when I'm not even arguing with YOU!" I meant the actual poster's thoughts in lieu of something written from a site.  Not "you" as in Annella.

Of course you can defend her...although I like her and everything, so I don't know why you're tsk, tsking so harshly.

Or did she get to a level that your not prepared to debate?...Kind of like we all have to use what's acceptable and must pass your muster in order to be verifiable or satisfactory in your opinion?

Comments like this only reflect badly on your character.  1) because they're not true and 2) because they're not very "Christian-like"

[shernajwine]

Firstly, thank you Annella for sticking up for me 

Woe to the day you found that "godandscience" website (your Robert Locke is also on there, I know).  It appears you've made it your go-to source and final authority on "answers" to the tough questions.

LOL. Your discomfort with that website only serves to confirm its legitimacy to me. And yes it is a site that is one of the most comprehensive on the "tough questions" but I do look at other sources for differing approaches and ideas.

Cherry-picking a few quotes doesn't speak for scientists on the whole.

No, especially considering the several thousands of Christian scientists there are. However, the Christian scientists are recognizing within their respective fields the a priori adherent to materialism that Lewontin spoke of.  Besides the fact that Lewontin was an evolutionist! An evolutionist said science had a priority to adhere to materialism and he wasn't the only evolutionist to say such things! I didn't have to really do much cherry picking as the amount of articles, essays, and books by the evolutionists themselves give me plenty of material!

As a former Christian myself, all I'm trying to do is warn you that you're being scammed  so as to save one more person from frittering their only life away...but you won't listen because you think I'm "lost" and you're shackled down by the mindset a god-belief requires.

Your Christian experience is not necessarily mine. I have told you before that loving and serving God, loving and serving His people have made me extremely happy. My faith fulfills me in a way that nothing else can. I don't just believe a god exists. I am in love with my Creator.

I do listen to you, if I hadn't have listened to you I wouldn't be discovering God in the whole new way I have come to see Him! It's just that the questions you posed, led me to stronger faith in God....not atheism. Far from being shackled, I am free! I don't need nor desire the salvation of atheism. But thanks for trying. 

[shernajwine]

I've found that most of what I'm "sparring" with is written by somebody else  lately (mainly that godandscience website), with Sherna's thoughts sprinkled in very lightly.  So yes, I'm a bit bothered when I see someone copy-pasting an authority figure's take on a topic in place of the actual poster's own thoughts

Don't spar then! First, I get called out for copying and pasting without referencing the source. So, I try to make sure I always reference now. THEN, I get called out for copying and pasting in the first place? Liljp actually said if I was going to copy and paste he wasn't going to bother responding LOL. I really don't see what the problem is. I happen to think that if the author of the information has made their point within a reasonable amount of words, why do I need to try to sit here and reword it just so it isn't their exact words?? If what they are saying completely represents my thoughts because I happen to agree with what they said, what difference does it make whether I copy and paste it? My entire posts do not consist of copy/pasted material! Well accept for my first post in this thread.

This is a ridiculous argument that is just an excuse to dismiss the information.

[Annella]

I'm not allowed to "help" my friend out a little bit?  Kind of double standard, don't ya think?  To coin your words on another thread...."Come on, it's just a forum".

Damn Internet...when I said, "It's not quite a fair or productive argument when I'm not even arguing with YOU!" I meant the actual poster's thoughts in lieu of something written from a site.  Not "you" as in Annella.

Of course you can defend her...although I like her and everything, so I don't know why you're tsk, tsking so harshly.

Or did she get to a level that your not prepared to debate?...Kind of like we all have to use what's acceptable and must pass your muster in order to be verifiable or satisfactory in your opinion?

Comments like this only reflect badly on your character.  1) because they're not true and 2) because they're not very "Christian-like"

The statement was fact......nothing else.  Every time you don't like something that may hit a bit home, you always try to turn it around as bad Christian-like character or bad Christian behavior.  I will not let my Brothers and Sisters in the Lord be accused of something that's not true.   

Don't mistake Christians as doormats.  We do love everybody, some we have to really try to love, but we still do.

[shernajwine]

Hey Annella,

I don't know if you saw a thread I posted earlier today (I put it on facebook too) but I thought you might really like this video I made.

http://smilebox.com/playBlog/4d5467324d6a4d7a4d54513d0d0a&blogview=true

(Sorry, this is off topic)

[Falconer02]

Liljp actually said if I was going to copy and paste he wasn't going to bother responding LOL.

If what they are saying completely represents my thoughts because I happen to agree with what they said, what difference does it make whether I copy and paste it?

They ultimately are not your own words. It's fine to quote small excerpts here and there and post the source, but if you're just throwing paragraph after paragraph from a biased site designed to make all the evidence point to your personal deity, it does damage your credibility because the readers take notice of the man behind the curtain. Out of provoking thought and making yourself look intelligent (I'm not saying you aren't-- I'm just showing writing tactics you should avoid), we should try to formulate the examples in our own words-- either to simplify the original source or to put more personal meaning into them. Large copy/pasting is left for the hungover jocks who wait till 3 am to start their research papers.

Think you'll enjoy this vid, Falc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY8iPJwztys

LOL Fav'd. Never forget. The cake is a lie.

It's just that the questions you posed, led me to stronger faith in God....not atheism. Far from being shackled, I am free! I don't need nor desire the salvation of atheism. But thanks for trying.

"I am free of being free" is slave talk for "I like my master". Hey, whatever.

[Annella]

Hey Annella,

I don't know if you saw a thread I posted earlier today (I put it on facebook too) but I thought you might really like this video I made.

http://smilebox.com/playBlog/4d5467324d6a4d7a4d54513d0d0a&blogview=true

(Sorry, this is off topic)

Beautiful!  Did you make this?  The singer sounds familiar.  I'll go to FB to see if you have the singer's name.....made me cry.  Doesn't matter....I'm done here.

[queenofnines]

Your discomfort with that website only serves to confirm its legitimacy to me.

Okay then.  But that's not very logical of you to think. 

Again, my discomfort comes from how heavily I've seen you rely on it, not the website itself.

It's just that the questions you posed, led me to stronger faith in God....not atheism.

Yep.  And that's the risk non-theists take by asking the hard questions: a believer is either going to go harder into their faith, or take a step back and start to realize some things about it later.  Happens every time.

If the resources/people didn't exist that bring up the good points against god, it would be a lot harder for many to leave the flock on their own.  This is because it doesn't come naturally to consider all of the deep problems with religion on one's own, especially when you've had it reinforced over and over again and the religion itself claims lucrative rewards.

I don't need nor desire the salvation of atheism. But thanks for trying.

The "salvation" of atheism?  Say what?  lol  Evolution and atheism aren't religions, but I've seen believers mistake them for being one time and again.

[shernajwine]

a believer is either going to go harder into their faith, or take a step back and start to realize some things about it later

I went "harder" into my faith, not in spite of the information and questions you posed, but because I made an effort to search out answers to the questions. I just wasn't going to be stupid enough to only go and search atheist answers to atheist questions.

Evolution and atheism aren't religions, but I've seen believers mistake them for being one time and again.

What else is it you are trying to do when you post "I'm trying to do is warn you that you're being scammed so as to save one more person from frittering their only life away"...are you not trying to "save" me from Christianity? Isn't that what the word salvation indicates...to save??

But keep lying to yourself, it seems to make you happy.

"I am free of being free" is slave talk for "I like my master". Hey, whatever.

Everyone is a slave to something, you are either a slave to sin and free from the control of righteousness. Or you are set free from sin and become a slave to God, but the benefit leads to holiness and the result is eternal life. What better of a master to serve than one who loves me unconditionally, and has set me free from a life of sin, guilt and shame! I'm not "free of being free" I'm free from the slavery of sin! 

[queenofnines]

I just wasn't going to be stupid enough to only go and search atheist answers to atheist questions.

Something I think you need to be careful with is labeling things "atheist this" and "atheist that".  Atheism is just the conclusion one reaches after studying a lot of information and coming to some self-realizations.  Just because some of the people I've learned from may technically be atheist, it doesn't change the quality or truth of what they're saying.  Unlike Christianity, atheism has no dogma.  We are merely trying to get you to live in reality.

But keep lying to yourself, it seems to make you happy.

Pulling out the claws, are we?  Of course I'd like it if I can get some people to abandon fantasy and replace it with reason.  However, these are not my immediate expectations.  It could be years before what I've said affects you...or you could never be affected at all.  But I have to still try, because I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible and would like to live in a world with people who also hold that stance.

[shernajwine]

We are merely trying to get you to live in reality.

Atheism is not reality it is a lie. Atheism is a religion.

Pulling out the claws, are we?  Of course I'd like it if I can get some people to abandon fantasy and replace it with reason.  However, these are not my immediate expectations.  It could be years  before what I've said affects you...or you could never be affected at all.  But I have to still try, because I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible and would like to live in a world with people who also hold that stance.

I apologize if I am getting a little harsh. I'm just stating the reality. You are lying to yourself, you don't think so, of course not. You believe the nonsense you go on and on about. You haven't defended any legitimate points I have brought up....such as what evolutionary mechanism creates information?? Just one example that you nor any scientist on any level can do anything but speculate about. Neo-Darwinian evolution is a religion, atheism is a religion, and you can deny the truth of that statement all you want. Nothing you have said has done anything but prove that it's a religion, so keep on talking and keep on proving me right.

The last part of your statement is exactly what Christians are trying to do, so how about all the atheists/skeptics STOP telling Christians to live and let live and accept other peoples faith; when you and others are trying to "spread the message of reality". A non-reality that says, there is no purpose in life, your ancestor is bacteria, you are not special in any sense other than that evolution favored certain mutant genes to get you here, and also you should try to have morals even though you're determined to be immoral.

The Christians "spreading the good news of the gospel", says you DO have a purpose, you are entirely and uniquely special as an individual, you are wonderfully made and you have a Creator who loves you and hears your prayers. You can have a life of peace amongst chaos, a life of joy among sadness, and freedom from condemnation.

Sorry but your lie isn't very appealing next to the truth of Jesus Christ and him crucified.

[queenofnines]

Atheism is not reality it is a lie. Atheism is a religion.

When I see you say stuff like this, it shows what a hold religion has over you.  It's fine for you to think it's "a lie", but at least get it right when it comes the religion part.  Atheism is NOT a religion and anyone who taunts otherwise just shows their complete lack of understanding about it and their inability to think beyond cliched, incorrect catchphrases.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I92vQ0Nj4LA

You haven't defended any legitimate points I have brought up....

Of course I have.  But - being a former Christian myself - what a non-believer says doesn't matter to you right now, regardless of how sound it is.  I've been there, too.

such as what evolutionary mechanism creates information??

I will never work anywhere close to the field of science, so why do you expect me to be qualified to give you a satisfying answer?  Again, your god can be disproven just fine using logic alone.  So quiz me on that.

A non-reality that says, there is no purpose in life

"There's no purpose to life, but there IS purpose to a life."  Everyone is free to make their own purpose for the one life they have.  And that's a hell of a lot more satisfying then labeling this life a test or "the doormat where you wipe your feet before starting your REAL life in the eternity".

your ancestor is bacteria

Why is that so insulting to you?  Our rich lineage is so much more awe-inspiring and amazing than a god saying, "Poof, there it is!"

you are not special in any sense other than that evolution favored certain mutant genes to get you here

It's okay to think you're special in regards to your local environment (for example: my husband thinks I'm special, or I'm especially better at this certain thing than other people I've met).  Just don't let it go to your head; it's all too easy to forget we are just a blue speck in an ordinary galaxy amongst BILLIONS of others.

you should try to have morals even though you're determined to be immoral.

Actually, it's because of evolution that we have morals.  Did you read my articles on compatibilism?

The Christians "spreading the good news of the gospel", says you DO have a purpose, you are entirely and uniquely special as an individual, you are wonderfully made and you have a Creator who loves you and hears your prayers. You can have a life of peace amongst chaos, a life of joy among sadness, and freedom from condemnation.

Uh, you're forgetting the most crucial piece of this wishful thinking!  Disneyland after we die, of course! (the religion business would FAIL without it)  And Hansel & Gretel's oven for horrible atheists such as myself!

Sorry but your lie isn't very appealing next to the truth of Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Don't you mean actually being dead when you're dead isn't as appealing as the idea of heaven?    I'm sure you wouldn't miss Jesus murdering himself to himself to appease rules he himself made if he had happened to do it differently.

[Falconer02]

Atheism is not reality it is a lie. Atheism is a religion.

"Sherna has a hobby of stamp collecting. Queen does not. Therefore Queen has a hobby of not collecting stamps".

Atheism a religion? It's really not. No offense towards you, but this runs near parallel to saying something like "I know what evolution is all about-- that we came from monkeys." Atheism is the absence of believing in a supreme being and following old rituals and holding precise conducts of thought.

This is just a quick explanation of something I hear a lot of coming from people talking about atheism-- just a quick fyi. Please continue your debate though. I'll shutup now...