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Topic: Religion and Homosexuality  (Read 80818 times)

shernajwine

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #450 on: September 30, 2010, 02:41:49 pm »
Quote
knowing what I knew about the religion delusion would be like denying that the sky is blue

Sometimes it's orange lol!  :D

No, the sky is purple

Well what do the atheists say the right color is? Better yet what does Richard Dawkins say the right color is? After all they are the authority on what the truth is!  ;)


queenofnines

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #451 on: September 30, 2010, 02:44:29 pm »
It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.

Who puts the people who make the laws into power?  YOU do.



Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.

 :notworthy:

And *this* sort of response is why non-believers accuse y'all of not having very good critical thinking skills.

Who dominates politics?  Christians do.  Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)?  Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

SurveyMack10

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #452 on: September 30, 2010, 02:46:53 pm »
It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.

Who puts the people who make the laws into power?  YOU do.



Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.

 :notworthy:

And *this* sort of response is why non-believers accuse y'all of not having very good critical thinking skills.

Who dominates politics?  Christians do.  Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)?  Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.
Which means you have a problem with DEMOCRACY

shernajwine

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #453 on: September 30, 2010, 02:48:35 pm »
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Who dominates politics?  Christians do.  Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)?  Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.

What happened to your belief that the majority gets to decide morality?


jcribb16

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #454 on: September 30, 2010, 02:50:53 pm »
It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.

Who puts the people who make the laws into power?  YOU do.



Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.

 :notworthy:

And *this* sort of response is why non-believers accuse y'all of not having very good critical thinking skills.

Who dominates politics?  Christians do.  Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)?  Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.
There you go again, qon!  You are the superior one with all knowledge and we don't know squat.  WRONG....

SurveyMack10

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #455 on: September 30, 2010, 02:51:57 pm »
No, you do NOT get to decide how or why I feel like I do- I do NOT have my morals spoon fed to me-

You may not realize it, but it's quite possible.  I know of lots of ex-Christians who secretly thought god's rules were faulty while putting on an air of agreeing with them.

Quote
and contrary to what you think I DO have a brain.

I never said you didn't...?

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Am I going to jump in her pants? Absolutely not.
Why? I choose not to.

So you're saying the ONLY thing that's stopping you from pursuing lesbian relationships is mere choice?  It has nothing to do with the fact that, I don't know...you're not sexually or emotionally attracted to them like you are with men?

Quote
You don't believe in free will though right? Or something like that, so I understand why you don't think it's a choice.

I believe in it in a limited sense.  I think genetics, environment, past experiences, and free choice all play a role in our daily lives.  Some things you can choose, some things you can't; it's all dependent on what the issue is and what variables are involved.

Quote
You are just as closeminded as an atheist as you accuse us "closeminded Christians" of being- you just wont open you eyes and see it.

How am I close-minded when I've been down your road and was a sincere Christian for 5 years?  Have you been a sincere atheist/agnostic ever?  Probably not.

In any event, I appreciate the response, Mack!   :)

So you are proposing I actually don't agree with the Bible, I'm just putting up a front...the arrogance of you even trying to tell me what I really believe is immeasurable.

You implied I didn't have a brain by saying that just because you don't agree with my choices they are not rational and I must not have consciously made them- unless I was delusional at the time.

Even if I was sexually attracted to women I wouldn't because it is wrong, and I can't live a lifestyle that is ethically wrong.

Well when someone makes the choice to do something awful, and it effects you, and their defense is their genetics, environment, and past experiences made them do it we'll see what you really think about choice. Plenty of people were brought up in terrible situations and overcame it. I choose NOT to support excuses like you do.

Whether or not you have ever been a Christian doesn't make you any less closeminded to in now.

In any event, thanks to you too.

Annella

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #456 on: September 30, 2010, 02:52:44 pm »
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How am I close-minded when I've been down your road and was a sincere Christian for 5 years?  Have you been a sincere atheist/agnostic ever?  Probably not.

In any event, I appreciate the response, Mack!
 

Why would we want to sell pure gold for stone?  You may have been a Christian in persona, but you didn't get it down deep where it transforms and changes you into a new creature in Christ.  Maybe that's not your fault.  I really don't know.

SurveyMack10

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #457 on: September 30, 2010, 02:52:58 pm »
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Who dominates politics?  Christians do.  Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)?  Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.

What happened to your belief that the majority gets to decide morality?

 :thumbsup:

SurveyMack10

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #458 on: September 30, 2010, 02:54:17 pm »
Conclusion

As a result of everything I have read, learned and experienced as a mental health worker, I long ago concluded that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Instead, it seems quite clear to me that there is a combination of genetic and biological factors that cause people to become gay. Choice and willfulness have nothing to do with who does and does not become homosexual. Those who are gay have no more choice over their sexual preferences than those who are heterosexual.


I never claimed they have MORE choice than a heterosexual

SurveyMack10

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #459 on: September 30, 2010, 03:03:35 pm »
Conclusion

As a result of everything I have read, learned and experienced as a mental health worker, I long ago concluded that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Instead, it seems quite clear to me that there is a combination of genetic and biological factors that cause people to become gay. Choice and willfulness have nothing to do with who does and does not become homosexual. Those who are gay have no more choice over their sexual preferences than those who are heterosexual.


I never claimed they have MORE choice than a heterosexual

So why you owning it? Hey, it isn't a choice period...you like whatever you like...

opinion

SurveyMack10

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #460 on: September 30, 2010, 04:45:33 pm »
Conclusion

As a result of everything I have read, learned and experienced as a mental health worker, I long ago concluded that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Instead, it seems quite clear to me that there is a combination of genetic and biological factors that cause people to become gay. Choice and willfulness have nothing to do with who does and does not become homosexual. Those who are gay have no more choice over their sexual preferences than those who are heterosexual.


I never claimed they have MORE choice than a heterosexual

So why you owning it? Hey, it isn't a choice period...you like whatever you like...

opinion

Are you a good person? I think all it boils down to is what is in your heart as far as God goes.

allrighty

jordandog

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #461 on: September 30, 2010, 05:10:13 pm »
It's a choice, it's a choice, it's a choice......

Fine. So you are all going to completely ignore any of the genetic mutations and influences that have been proven and found. No, the fields of science and genetics have NOT yet come up with a singular gene or chromosomal pair that is irrefutable proof of an automatic disposition to homosexuality, I will give you that. But again, how can you all just close your eyes like little kids and play the "If I can't see you, then you can't see me, and you aren't there." game?!

I am going to give you something on just one scope of those 'genetic occurences' - inter-sexuality. Read if you want or ignore it, as always, it is up to you. I have made this as simple to understand as possible and since we have some highly intelligent people here, it should be no problem to get through it.

Inter-sexuality, in a variety of forms, occurs in about one of every 1,500- 2,000 births. That is around the same occurrence percentage as cystic fibrosis. The sex of a child is more than the simple blueprint learned in high school biology – XX for female, XY for male. All embryos are identical for the first eight weeks of gestation. After that time, several factors nudge the fetus toward male or female development. The problem is some embryos just don‘t behave.

The cause can be chromosomal or hormonal. Infants with androgen insensitivity syndrome, for example, have XY cells but cannot process testosterone and they look like females. There is a genetically inherited condition called 5-alpha-reductase deficiency that triggers a very apparent female-to-male sex change at puberty. Congenital adrenal hyperplasia – the most common inter-sexual condition – results from hormonal imbalances that masculinize the genitals of female (XX) children. Scientists and geneticists both have documented their findings and beliefs that such an imbalance also masculinizes the brain, establishing gender and sexual orientation.

There is a surgical training videotape called Surgical Reconstruction of Ambiguous Genitalia in Female Children. It is a required study. Why? Because the ambiguity is classified as a 'social and psychological emergency'. Surgeons almost always perform the plastic surgery early to protect the child – and the parents – from any sense of ambiguity. Nearly all inter-sexual babies are assigned to be female, because the surgical techniques are better. However, there is NO way to remove the psychological confusion.

This mix-up starts at conception, when a sperm cell containing half of the father's chromosomes merges with an egg containing half of the mother's. All eggs carry an X chromosome, but sperm cells carry either a matching X or a smaller and less dense Y. Usually when egg X meets sperm X, the result is a girl – XX. When it meets sperm Y, it's a boy – XY. But there are many exceptions. As one fetal cell divides, a sex chromosome may become detached from the other 45 chromosomes. These babies have what is called mosaic chromosomes. There is no standard prenatal test as of yet because it is only apparent after birth. And because so few people are tested, geneticists suspect mosaic chromosomes may be far more common than we know. So does that not also imply the 'fact' there is far more gender confusion than we know? Can you honestly say, without a doubt, that boys who are more feminine and girls who are more masculine, in all behaviors growing up, and begin leading a homosexual life are doing it because they have NO control over it and NO choice in the matter?

Maybe we should take the 'designer babies' theory one step farther. Instead of giving parents the chance to walk in and tell a doctor, "We would like a boy or we would like a girl.", why don't we just find a way to tinker with nature even more. How about we simply destroy any chance of possible mutation or abnormality before conception and wipe out gender confusion and homosexuality altogether? It sure would make a whole lot of folks a whole lot more comfortable now wouldn't it? We, as a society, would no longer have to worry about all those sinning gays out there, eh?




You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

amyrouse

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #462 on: September 30, 2010, 05:31:47 pm »
This last month alone:

Billy Lucas, died 9.9.10: http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/east_central/teen-suicide-victim-hangs-himself-from-barn-rafters

Tyler Clementi, died 9.22.10: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/30/eveningnews/main6916119.shtml?tag=strip

Asher Brown, died 9.23.20: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7220896.html

Seth Walsh, died 9.28.20: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018025-504083.html

All four of these young men killed themselves because they were gay and were treated as substandard because of this fact.  But I guess it could have all been prevented, though, had they made the "right" choice and, against what they believed wholeheartedly as to who they were they decided to pursue relationships with females.

I don't care personally whether or not someone believes homosexuality is a sin, whether it is abnormal or unnatural or contrary to what g-d wants for us.  The only actions we can control are those we personally take.  And I believe, wholeheartedly, the more someone votes against gay rights, the more someone preaches against gay rights, and the more people uphold "praying the gay away" that it damages more than it saves. 

Everyone, not just the young men who died in these cases, but everyone involved is effected by this.  Religion and faith should be about love and acceptance...I don't see any love or acceptance here.  To ignore this is wrong.  These are human beings, g-d's children, and regardless of whether or not they were born gay or made a choice to be gay, they deserved much more respect than what they received.  There is so much fighting over the semantics of the issue that it is easily forgotten and/or ignored that these are real human beings lives at stake here.  We live in a culture where children and young adults get the idea that its okay to treat someone badly because they are different.  That needs to stop.  Until it does, there will be more victims of hate.



jordandog

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #463 on: September 30, 2010, 05:44:32 pm »
Quote from queenofnines:
Again, you have all the right to not approve of gays.  But your beliefs do NOT have the right to restrict basic freedoms from people who are simply different than you.
 
It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.

And just exactly who is it that is voting and revoting time and again to keep those very laws in place. Who is voting and revoting time and again to keep politicians in office who will ultimately pass those laws that continue to restrict those basic freedoms?


Excellent and moving post, Amy. If people do not read that and question what they are actually doing, then something is VERY wrong.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

amyrouse

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Re: Religion and Homosexuality
« Reply #464 on: September 30, 2010, 05:57:02 pm »
Thank you, Jordandog. I try.



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