Religion and Homosexuality

[amyrouse]

I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?

I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin.  I, however, disagree with you.  Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins.  Let's take a look at murder here.  Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Murder is a crime, because it is denying someone their life.  You could even say it was quite a horrible sin because it involves a person making a decision as to when another person's life should end, a choice that should be left up to only g-d.  There are people who are born with this type of behavior called sociopaths.  These people are most definitely held accountable for their choices.

Now, on the other hand, we have homosexuals, who feel a natural (natural, as in all of animalia partakes in homosexual activity) inclination to desire sexually and love a member of their same gender.  They feel this inclination so strongly (whether or not they were born with that inclination) that they wish to devote their lives to living and loving this other, granted same gender, person and the other person feels the same way.  Should they be punished for this?  How else could you view holding them accountable for their choices?  

[Annella]

So forget about whether a person is genetically determined to be a killer, it's not their fault they were born that way but, it doesn't matter because killing is wrong. But gays, they don't hurt anyone so they are allowed to be what they were born to be.

You guys are picking and choosing what gets to be defined as choice and what isn't. If homosexuality isn't a choice because it's in their genes, that fits in perfectly with your physicalist mindset! Great! But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha! 

Exactly!!  

[amyrouse]

So forget about whether a person is genetically determined to be a killer, it's not their fault they were born that way but, it doesn't matter because killing is wrong. But gays, they don't hurt anyone so they are allowed to be what they were born to be.

You guys are picking and choosing what gets to be defined as choice and what isn't. If homosexuality isn't a choice because it's in their genes, that fits in perfectly with your physicalist mindset! Great! But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha!  

Exactly!!  

There is a difference between murder, though, and homosexuality.  

EDIT: And I would believe that g-d agrees, considering murder is very clearly outlined in the 10 Commandments, and homosexuality is only alluded to in scripture, scripture that is up to interpretation.  There is no other interpretation to "Thou Shalt Not Kill" other than killin' people be wrong, yo.

[Annella]

I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?

I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin.  I, however, disagree with you.  Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins.  Let's take a look at murder here.  Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Murder is a crime, because it is denying someone their life.  You could even say it was quite a horrible sin because it involves a person making a decision as to when another person's life should end, a choice that should be left up to only g-d.  There are people who are born with this type of behavior called sociopaths.  These people are most definitely held accountable for their choices.

Now, on the other hand, we have homosexuals, who feel a natural (natural, as in all of animalia partakes in homosexual activity) inclination to desire sexually and love a member of their same gender.  They feel this inclination so strongly (whether or not they were born with that inclination) that they wish to devote their lives to living and loving this other, granted same gender, person and the other person feels the same way.  Should they be punished for this?  How else could you view holding them accountable for their choices?  

Wait a minute Amy.  I was blasted earlier because I called it a sin, and was told all sin is sin.  Murder, lying, etc., is all sin, there is no one greater than the other.

Here again we're going in a circle with the "natural" argument. 

[Falconer02]

Going with an opportunity to choose as the choice-definition, I do not believe homosexuals get a choice in the matter-- bisexuality is another story obviously but even they don't get the choice to be attracted to just one sex. Similarly how I don't get a choice to like females or not or Annella gets a choice to like men.

But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha!

As I stated in my last post, it's not just genes though (and even the gene argument is inconclusive, but Jdog brought up some majorly good points). Though I never really put much weight on the strictly-gene argument either.

Murder, lying, etc., is all sin, there is no one greater than the other.

Because we all know that Charles Manson is right on par with that little kid who lies about his uncle working for Nintendo.

[amyrouse]

I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?

I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin.  I, however, disagree with you.  Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins.  Let's take a look at murder here.  Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Murder is a crime, because it is denying someone their life.  You could even say it was quite a horrible sin because it involves a person making a decision as to when another person's life should end, a choice that should be left up to only g-d.  There are people who are born with this type of behavior called sociopaths.  These people are most definitely held accountable for their choices.

Now, on the other hand, we have homosexuals, who feel a natural (natural, as in all of animalia partakes in homosexual activity) inclination to desire sexually and love a member of their same gender.  They feel this inclination so strongly (whether or not they were born with that inclination) that they wish to devote their lives to living and loving this other, granted same gender, person and the other person feels the same way.  Should they be punished for this?  How else could you view holding them accountable for their choices?  

Wait a minute Amy.  I was blasted earlier because I called it a sin, and was told all sin is sin.  Murder, lying, etc., is all sin, there is no one greater than the other.

Here again we're going in a circle with the "natural" argument.

Ok...forget the natural part.  "Homosexuals who feel an inclination to desire sexually and love a member of their same gender.  They feel this inclination so strongly that they wish to devote their lives to living and loving this other person who feels the same way."  Should they be punished for this, whether or not it is a choice?  They are therefore sinning by loving someone.

It may say in some scriptural interpretation that all sin is sin.  However, murder is a sin that was so big it made it to the top ten and was clearly written as such.  You know my opinion on scripture regarding homosexuality in the bible is that it is open to interpretation.  

I don't see how homosexuality and murder can be equated.  One is a "sin" regarding love, and another is about power and hatred.  I don't see how a g-d of love would condemn someone for loving someone, genuinely loving someone.  Jesus loved and healed the lepers even though "he wasn't supposed to."  How is love wrong?

NOTE: I am not attacking you, Annella!  I am just trying to understand and to put into words how I feel.  I am sorry if this comes across differently.

[shernajwine]

I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin.  I, however, disagree with you.  Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins.  Let's take a look at murder here.  Thou Shalt Not Kill.

You can disagree but, God does not measure sin from small to big. As a matter fact the bible says that hating your brother is murdering him! God puts hate and murder on the same level. You hating someone may never effect them!

Sin is sin, we don't get to decide which is the worst. Is homosexuality different than murder? Yes. But when we are talking about it in regards to sin, it isn't. My gossiping is just as much a sin as being a homosexual! Shame on me, thank God for His grace!

But you want to say, hey this isn't their choice, they were born this way. Okay, a murderer didn't have a choice, they were born to murder people, a rapist...they didn't make a choice to rape, their genes made them do it, they were born to rape somebody.

I was born to be a Christian, You were born to be a Jew, nobody is wrong, nobody is right, we are just born the way we are born right? Nobody should be held accountable because we didn't choose to be this way. We were born this way.

Sounds like a bunch of rubbish to me but apparently, according to some of the "born gay" defenders here...it's all about genes! So where do you draw the line between what is a choice and what isn't? And who has the authority to draw that line?

[Annella]

Going with an opportunity to choose as the choice-definition, I do not believe homosexuals get a choice in the matter-- bisexuality is another story obviously but even they don't get the choice to be attracted to just one sex. Similarly how I don't get a choice to like females or not or Annella gets a choice to like men.

But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha!

As I stated in my last post, it's not just genes though. And I never really put much weight on the strictly-gene argument either.

Murder, lying, etc., is all sin, there is no one greater than the other.

Because we all know that Charles Manson is right on par with that little kid who lies about his uncle working for Nintendo.

Okay, go and split hairs about Manson and the little kid.  However, sin is sin.  Some sins have more retribution, or consequences of that sin.  

Unfortunately some sins can affect others around us to the point that we have not just sinned against our own selves, but involved someone else in our original sin, and caused them to fall also.  

[shernajwine]

WE HAVE FREE WILL! Until it comes to sexuality 

[Annella]

WE HAVE FREE WILL! Until it comes to sexuality 

Yeah right

[Annella]

I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin.  I, however, disagree with you.  Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins.  Let's take a look at murder here.  Thou Shalt Not Kill.

You can disagree but, God does not measure sin from small to big. As a matter fact the bible says that hating your brother is murdering him! God puts hate and murder on the same level. You hating someone may never effect them!

Sin is sin, we don't get to decide which is the worst. Is homosexuality different than murder? Yes. But when we are talking about it in regards to sin, it isn't. My gossiping is just as much a sin as being a homosexual! Shame on me, thank God for His grace!

But you want to say, hey this isn't their choice, they were born this way. Okay, a murderer didn't have a choice, they were born to murder people, a rapist...they didn't make a choice to rape, their genes made them do it, they were born to rape somebody.

I was born to be a Christian, You were born to be a Jew, nobody is wrong, nobody is right, we are just born the way we are born right? Nobody should be held accountable because we didn't choose to be this way. We were born this way.

Sounds like a bunch of rubbish to me but apparently, according to some of the "born gay" defenders here...it's all about genes! So where do you draw the line between what is a choice and what isn't? And who has the authority to draw that line?

Actually this post of Sherene's explains it to a "T". 

[amyrouse]

This is where we draw the line...when our hatred of the sin pervades the minds of these bullies to push this young man this far:  http://news.lalate.com/2010/09/28/asher-brown-bullied-to-death-at-13/


I made a choice to be Jewish; I was born to love my husband.  

[shernajwine]

This is where we draw the line...when our hatred of the sin pervades the minds of these bullies to push this young man this far:  http://news.lalate.com/2010/09/28/asher-brown-bullied-to-death-at-13/


I made a choice to be Jewish; I was born to love my husband.  

What constitutes making a choice and being "born" with a genetic disposition that determines things in your life? Do you have a gene that has your husbands name on it, and there was no way you couldn't NOT love him? But your faith is exempt from this predetermined fate? There was no ruling gene that says you had to be a Jew at some point in your life?

You are picking and choosing what is choice and what isn't. What are the rules?

[amyrouse]

This is where we draw the line...when our hatred of the sin pervades the minds of these bullies to push this young man this far:  http://news.lalate.com/2010/09/28/asher-brown-bullied-to-death-at-13/


I made a choice to be Jewish; I was born to love my husband.  

I guess this poor kid's sin of his sexuality was just as bad as the one committed by those who bullied him...

We draw the line in how we talk about it, whether or not it is a sin.  The more homosexuality is bashed as a sin, the more people rail against it as unnatural or abnormal, the more it gives these punk kids the idea that it is okay to treat some kid like Asher Brown as a substandard human being.  I'm not saying that the belief that homosexuality is a sin caused his death...but, it played a role.  Some poor 13 year old kid believed with his entire being that he was born to be a sinner and that he was going to face hatred like he faced in his school for the rest of his life and no one in authority was going to stand up for him or defend him...doesn't sound like a life worth living to me, either.  And the view that he chose this?  Especially since when he would fall in love in the future, that would be considered the wrong love as well?  Sounds pretty far fetched to me.

Sorry for being so emotional in this post, but things like this upset me and cause this reaction.

[sosoftbioti]

Why are there religious groups that say "God hates fags"?

Because there are many, many verses in the Bible that disapprove of it:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. -- Leviticus 18:22

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13

Thou shalt not bring the hire of a *bleep*, or the price of a dog [homosexual], into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God. -- Deuteronomy 23:18

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. -- Jude 7

Nevermind the fact that the Average Christian ignores HUNDREDS of other commandments from the Bible.  They just want an excuse to be prejudiced, and that's why they emphasize Scriptures like these.  In 10 years when same-sex marriage is legalized in all states, religious people will be FORCED to *change their doctrine* like they had to for black people a few decades back.

If God created humans and didn't want any of them to be gay why did he make some of them gay?

The Christian god doesn't exist because something that is perfect (god) cannot create something that is imperfect or has the ability to become imperfect (humans).  It is a logical fallacy.  Homosexuality is just an aspect of nature.