Religion and Homosexuality

[amyrouse]

But some of the populous that voted for non-gay marriage is non-denominational, how does that make this purely a religious problem? It isn't purely denied because it is a sin to some religions.

I would totally agree with you if it was all one denomination of religion that voted this down and that was the clear and cut reason why they couldn't marry. I would absolutely 100% concede. But that's not the case a lot of people from a mass variety of religions voted it down(hell, I even know gay people that voted down Prop 8 in CA a few years back).

Non-denominational?  Does that equate non-religious?  And I don't recall saying it was a purely religious problem...my word was usually.  However, you aren't showing us anything here to the contrary of it being a religious issue.  How many denominations of religion are there that do not consider homosexuality a sin?  I'm not talking about just Christians here...there are Jews and Muslims that are right on that bandwagon. 

As for the Constitution reference. Is it just to tell a cocaine addict that they cant indulge in their habit because society has told them it is wrong? I'm sure they would absolutely love the liberty to snort/smoke wherever and whenever they like because that is how they pursue their happiness. But as a whole, the country decided to discriminate against these drug using people by making it a federal offense to possess or use such substances.

I find it to be reaching to use this as a comparison, because there is none.  Cocaine is an addictive drug that results in the addict using whatever means necessary to continue to obtain and use the drug.  I don't view making cocaine illegal as discrimination but as a valid preventative measure.  Homosexual marriage is about two people who love each other wanting to have the same rights to be together as heterosexuals.

My dog and myself wouldn't be discriminated against in the workplace of Animal photography. Should I be allowed to marry her? Hell no.
My sister wouldn't be discriminated against. Is she a viable option for me now too?
I want 10 wives. Is that cool?
Is it okay if one of those 10 is 15?

It just opens up a metaphorical Pandora's Box for all other sorts of marriage that should not be going on. (Which is the argument for the other side, along with the "its a man and woman" hoo hah and all that other hum bug stuff)

I can't say I agree with polygamy (I think its quite squicky), but I have seen some polyamorous relationships where all seemed to be happy and getting it on from all around, and while all are consenting adults who recognize the risks of such relationships, then so be it.  Same with people with "open marriages".  Not something I want in my household, but whatever works for them doesn't have to work for me.

I find using bestiality, incest, and statutory rape, though, as being an offensive argument against homosexuality.  Is that really the best argument the other side can come up with?  Oh, well if homeboy over there wants to marry that *bleep* and do sexual stuff with it, then I should be able to do something with this here horse because it ain't no different.  Whatever.  That's weak.  There are specific reasons against bestiality, incest, and statutory rape, including ability to consent and preventing birth defects.

Q: What is the legal definition of marriage?

A: Marriage is usually defined as a contract entered into by two people (a man and a woman) demonstrating their intent to be husband and wife in the eyes of the law. http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/marriage-basics/marriage-faq.html

There is also precedence in "common law" marriage, after a couple living together for so long receiving the same rights and responsibilities as those tying the knot in front of g-d, the JOP, and all to see, with their shiny signed piece of paper.  So...why is it restricted to only heterosexuals?  Why should male/male or female/female marriage not be going on? 

Let's look back at the parts of the constitution I quoted:

We the People  of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The 9th Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. 

The law gives heteros the right to marry once they fulfill specific obligations (blood tests, licensing, etc.)...yet, homosexuals are denied.  Maybe its a good thing I'm not sitting on the Supreme Court...sure seems to me to be a clear-cut interpretation of discrimination if I've ever seen one.

NOTE:  I am not accusing anyone on here personally of discriminating!

[SurveyMack10]

 Walksalone,  I can't stay passive on this, even though I did try.  I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.  I thought you were a mature adult who could debate and converse without including the name calling.  That doesn't get you anywhere, you know.  It just makes you look immature and foolish that you are mocking other adults, especially since they are Christians.  I realize you and I haven't really spoken much, other than the Indian threads, but I couldn't sit back and not take up for friends who do not deserve to be called those names.  Thank you.

very much appreciated!!!

[queenofnines]

I can't say I agree with polygamy (I think its quite squicky), but I have seen some polyamorous relationships where all seemed to be happy and getting it on from all around, and while all are consenting adults who recognize the risks of such relationships, then so be it.  Same with people with "open marriages".  Not something I want in my household, but whatever works for them doesn't have to work for me.

EXACTLY.

In other news, all of the Christians here have conveniently ignored answering my question of how exactly homosexuality is a choice.  Refer back to the "devil tinkering one's brain" a few pages back.

We're all born with a certain set of likes/dislikes due to genes, and there's not much range in which we can change them.  I have never liked the taste of cow's milk, for example.  Does that mean I can "choose" to like it?  Of course not.  You can force me to drink it until the cows come home (lol), but I will always find it disgusting.  I have no choice in the matter.  The same thing goes for who people are attracted to.

Commence Sherna jumping on me because I said we're BORN with certain traits...therefore, we must have no free will!  

[jordandog]

In light of what you just wrote, queen, let me again add this from an earlier post of mine:
You believe that people are not ‘born gay’. Fine - I won’t waste any time educating you on the infinite number of genetic anomalies that occur and are the cause of gender confusion, mutation, etc.

It can't be found as truth in the Bible, so it does not exist. You hear or read things from people who are on the side of it being a choice, and because it is more comfortable for you to go with that, you do. You base your views of gays and their lifestyles on an archaic writing because it allows you all to stay within your own precious 'comfort zone'. The crucial evidence that supports it NOT being a choice is there, you are simply not buying into it and that makes me furious, as it does countless others.

You cannot presume to even remotely claim any understanding of it by doing a Google search, finding a few things to read, and then say, "Oh, I see, but it is purely a mistake or a misnomer on the part of science and genetics. They just say these things because they don't really have an answer, but they come from a place of some intelligence, so quite a few people will believe them. Besides, it's only an excuse they can use for the choices they make to be gay."

But let any one of you come to me with your child, your loved one, who is extremely ill and you want the answer as to why they are, what could have caused this, and what kind of options do we have here. So I begin the standard compiling of my SOAP notes in their chart (Subjective, Objective, Assessment, and Plan).  When it started, what triggered it, order testing and workups, etc. - you all probably know how this works. So, after using all I have at my disposal, I come to you with my diagnosis and how I would normally treat accordingly. Well, you are in shock, to say the least, with what I tell you.

This is purely a fictional scenario, but I think you will see where I am going with it:
Your daughter/son has a fairly rare genetic anomaly/marker that would not have been known about until you brought her in. It’s NOT something that is a standard test done at birth and since we had no complications post natal, there was also no reason to run any but the standard procedural testing then. Unfortunately, your son/daughter chose to make bananas a part of their diet, which almost everyone knows is NOT a good choice and society looks down on it, but they were driven by something they had NO control over, so the bananas became something they made a part of their life. While this choice might be viewed as abominable by the Bible and religion at large, they simply could not stay away from bananas.  Because of that rare genetic anomaly/marker forcing them, against all their willpower and the pleading/threatening of those who are close to them to just stop eating bananas, they now have a life threatening and as of now, incurable disease. You can’t believe it, you are feeling completely and utterly lost, and now begin the usual desperate pleadings to me/us to help them.

Turn this around. Your child is born with a genetic anomaly/marker of which you and they are totally unaware of.  They choose to make the same sex the object of their affections, etc., etc., etc. and now, BOOM - I have to inform you they are HIV+/ have AIDS. I am willing to bet you would buy into it NOT being a choice IF the bananas were the cause of the disease that would kill them. You would, in a heartbeat, attribute it to genetics and not the fact they had no power over why they were drawn to bananas. The bible says drinking to drunkenness is a no-no. Alcohol kills thousands every day through diseases like cirrhosis of the liver, pancreatic cancer, diabetes, long painful deaths from wet brains, and traffic fatalities/shootings just to name a few. Drinking alcohol is a choice, but do you 'condemn' the alcoholic lifestyle, do you vote against alcohol being legal? No, you show pity on them. The fact that two people of the same sex together takes you so far out of your own comfort zone, you refuse to acknowledge that IT IS NOT a choice. But a bunch of bananas? You would find a way around that by any avenue possible. This comparison IS ridiculous, but I hope we all can see where I was trying to get with it.

[jcribb16]

I researched some into this myself and found that there are proposed causes of homosexuality.. I'm only listing them, not saying that I am promoting them.  This is courtesy of "Encyclopedia of Creation Science."

1. Genes as a cause: "the gene has not been identified, so this view is not science, but mere speculation; statistical studies give strong evidence that homosexuality is not caused by genetics, but is influenced by environment; even if there were a genetic causation to the behavior, that would not still not make it acceptable. We all have the predisposition to sin. Being genetically predisposed to a certain attribute does not make the attribute any less harmful. The real issue is not whether it is genetic, but whether it is harmful."

2.  Environmental influences: "Many hold the view that early childhood experiences predispose people to homosexuality. From a very young age, a child's experiences gained from the environment allow a predisposition for homosexual practice; Very few would deny this is at least a contributor. The Bible states, "Raise a child in the ways of the Lord and he will not depart from it" Proverbs 22:6 (NKJV). In short, parents play an important role in influencing their children's choices. However, despite the effect of parents on their children, children are still responsible for their own actions. The environmental aspect triggers social behaviors within society that could in part be the origin of what scientists call, the homosexuality gene. The fact that a child is socialized to be homosexual does not make the behavior any less tragic than a child that is socialized to be a sociopath"

3.  Choice:  "Most people of faith believe that homosexuality is a choice. Many recovering homosexuals describe their homosexuality as being caused by a combination of socialization and choice, and that their return to a healthy, heterosexual lifestyle was also the result of choice, self-discipline, and faith. "


I will add that the Bible is very clear on this issue of where it stands as regarding to sin.

[SurveyMack10]

I can't say I agree with polygamy (I think its quite squicky), but I have seen some polyamorous relationships where all seemed to be happy and getting it on from all around, and while all are consenting adults who recognize the risks of such relationships, then so be it.  Same with people with "open marriages".  Not something I want in my household, but whatever works for them doesn't have to work for me.

EXACTLY.

In other news, all of the Christians here have conveniently ignored answering my question of how exactly homosexuality is a choice.  Refer back to the "devil tinkering one's brain" a few pages back.

We're all born with a certain set of likes/dislikes due to genes, and there's not much range in which we can change them.  I have never liked the taste of cow's milk, for example.  Does that mean I can "choose" to like it?  Of course not.  You can force me to drink it until the cows come home (lol), but I will always find it disgusting.  I have no choice in the matter.  The same thing goes for who people are attracted to.

Commence Sherna jumping on me because I said we're BORN with certain traits...therefore, we must have no free will!  

I've answered that question many times.

[shernajwine]

Commence Sherna jumping on me because I said we're BORN with certain traits...therefore, we must have no free will!

You said it not me  ....oh AND your husband said it, so go roll your eyes at him too 

[queenofnines]

I've answered that question many times.

Really?  All I've seen is everyone hammer it home that it's a "choice", but you've never explained HOW that works exactly.  Is it just the devil tempting people, or not?  If not, how else can you explain where homosexual attraction comes from if not by birth?

oh AND your husband said it, so go roll your eyes at him too

Yes, he and I disagree heavily on the subject.    Did you ever read the articles I posted on this awhile back?  They explain my views on compatibilism quite well.

[amyrouse]

In light of what you just wrote, queen, let me again add this from an earlier post of mine:
You believe that people are not ‘born gay’. Fine - I won’t waste any time educating you on the infinite number of genetic anomalies that occur and are the cause of gender confusion, mutation, etc.

It can't be found as truth in the Bible, so it does not exist. You hear or read things from people who are on the side of it being a choice, and because it is more comfortable for you to go with that, you do. You base your views of gays and their lifestyles on an archaic writing because it allows you all to stay within your own precious 'comfort zone'. The crucial evidence that supports it NOT being a choice is there, you are simply not buying into it and that makes me furious, as it does countless others.

You cannot presume to even remotely claim any understanding of it by doing a Google search, finding a few things to read, and then say, "Oh, I see, but it is purely a mistake or a misnomer on the part of science and genetics. They just say these things because they don't really have an answer, but they come from a place of some intelligence, so quite a few people will believe them. Besides, it's only an excuse they can use for the choices they make to be gay."

But let any one of you come to me with your child, your loved one, who is extremely ill and you want the answer as to why they are, what could have caused this, and what kind of options do we have here. So I begin the standard compiling of my SOAP notes in their chart (Subjective, Objective, Assessment, and Plan).  When it started, what triggered it, order testing and workups, etc. - you all probably know how this works. So, after using all I have at my disposal, I come to you with my diagnosis and how I would normally treat accordingly. Well, you are in shock, to say the least, with what I tell you.

This is purely a fictional scenario, but I think you will see where I am going with it:
Your daughter/son has a fairly rare genetic anomaly/marker that would not have been known about until you brought her in. It’s NOT something that is a standard test done at birth and since we had no complications post natal, there was also no reason to run any but the standard procedural testing then. Unfortunately, your son/daughter chose to make bananas a part of their diet, which almost everyone knows is NOT a good choice and society looks down on it, but they were driven by something they had NO control over, so the bananas became something they made a part of their life. While this choice might be viewed as abominable by the Bible and religion at large, they simply could not stay away from bananas.  Because of that rare genetic anomaly/marker forcing them, against all their willpower and the pleading/threatening of those who are close to them to just stop eating bananas, they now have a life threatening and as of now, incurable disease. You can’t believe it, you are feeling completely and utterly lost, and now begin the usual desperate pleadings to me/us to help them.

Turn this around. Your child is born with a genetic anomaly/marker of which you and they are totally unaware of.  They choose to make the same sex the object of their affections, etc., etc., etc. and now, BOOM - I have to inform you they are HIV+/ have AIDS. I am willing to bet you would buy into it NOT being a choice IF the bananas were the cause of the disease that would kill them. You would, in a heartbeat, attribute it to genetics and not the fact they had no power over why they were drawn to bananas. The bible says drinking to drunkenness is a no-no. Alcohol kills thousands every day through diseases like cirrhosis of the liver, pancreatic cancer, diabetes, long painful deaths from wet brains, and traffic fatalities/shootings just to name a few. Drinking alcohol is a choice, but do you 'condemn' the alcoholic lifestyle, do you vote against alcohol being legal? No, you show pity on them. The fact that two people of the same sex together takes you so far out of your own comfort zone, you refuse to acknowledge that IT IS NOT a choice. But a bunch of bananas? You would find a way around that by any avenue possible. This comparison IS ridiculous, but I hope we all can see where I was trying to get with it.

Shows where my mind has been lately...when I read this, Jordandog, I couldn't stop laughing because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ1a0ymGCKA

[shernajwine]

oh AND your husband said it, so go roll your eyes at him too

Yes, he and I disagree heavily on the subject.    Did you ever read the articles I posted on this awhile back?  They explain my views on compatibilism quite well.

[/quote]

If you are referring to this:
 http://www.atheistnexus.org/profiles/blogs/determinism-a-surrogate?xg_source=activity (also read the comments for more detail from the author)
http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/freewillanintelligentchoice/forum/topics/free-will-explained

Yes I did read it. However the author says this
In other words, we can (in our imagination) go where causality can't . . . and bring back conclusions that greatly affect our actions

The compatibilist view sees free will as natural and within the confines of physical laws.

But he doesn't explain HOW imagination is even possible if the mind is completely physical and HOW free will is natural within the confines of physical laws. The entire article is an attempt at rationalizing away an idea that you find uncomfortable without answering all aspects of the issue. If the mind is physical, imagination is an illusion. If the mind is physical, and subject to physical laws, you are a product of your genes and free will is an illusion.

If you are going to argue that gays didn't have choice, then the same concept says....I didn't have a choice but to believe in God and you didn't have a choice to not believe in God. Gays don't have a choice, criminals don't even have a choice. We are all a product of our genes and we don't make choices. Our selfish genes rule our lives in a fight for survival and there is no way to thwart them as Richard Dawkins and yourself would like to think.

As much as a gay person might want to thwart that homosexual gene, it "goes against their nature" right?

I give your husband enough credit to at least own up to the fact that he can't have it both ways.

[jordandog]

Shows where my mind has been lately...when I read this, Jordandog, I couldn't stop laughing because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ1a0ymGCKA

LOL! I admitted my analogy was a bit off the wall, but come on now, Amy..... My little brother did the banana skit endlessly after that until my father threatened him.

[amyrouse]

Shows where my mind has been lately...when I read this, Jordandog, I couldn't stop laughing because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ1a0ymGCKA

LOL! I admitted my analogy was a bit off the wall, but come on now, Amy..... My little brother did the banana skit endlessly after that until my father threatened him.

But...don't you know...some people put things that aren't bananas in their ears in order to keep from doing other things...

More proof of my mind being totally in the gutter, and not on topic!

[SurveyMack10]

I've answered that question many times.

Really?  All I've seen is everyone hammer it home that it's a "choice", but you've never explained HOW that works exactly.  Is it just the devil tempting people, or not?  If not, how else can you explain where homosexual attraction comes from if not by birth?

oh AND your husband said it, so go roll your eyes at him too

Yes, he and I disagree heavily on the subject.    Did you ever read the articles I posted on this awhile back?  They explain my views on compatibilism quite well.

Here's my point- It has NOT been proven that they are born that way. You can't prove it so you can't convince me (as you are trying to ). In your words, if you're the one trying to do the convincing YOU have the burden of proof. I am NOT trying to convince you, just telling you why I think it's wrong. In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.

[Falconer02]

Edit: Love the example, Jdog.

In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.

We've given you plenty of information on it not being a choice and how it's not an opinion since it's completely natural, and yet you still believe someone just goes "Okay I'm gay now cuz I feel like it"? There's massive amounts of logical information pointing to it not being a problem in society, that they have difficulty going against their nature (whether it be social upbringing and/or biological), and that it's seen everywhere in nature.

[amyrouse]

In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.

We've given you plenty of information on it not being a choice and how it's not an opinion, and yet you still believe someone just goes "Okay I'm gay now cuz I feel like it"?

Sheesh, Falc.  You must have a banana in your ear.