Religion and Homosexuality

[shernajwine]

yes the second evolutionary type of response i have seen tonight! i think marie converted!

No, just showing how the bible can still stand even with scientific findings.

marie the bible does not support evolution. you either are going to believe the bible or you're going to believe evolution.

The Bible says those who reject the truth, “worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator (Romans 1)”. Worshipping creation is the natural result of evolution. Carl Sagan said that evolution’s natural conclusion is atheism, but in his book ‘Cosmos’, Sagan stated:

    “Our ancestors worshiped the Sun, and they were far from foolish. And yet the Sun is an ordinary, even a mediocre star. If we must worship a power greater than ourselves, does it not make sense to revere the Sun and stars? “

God said that men would worship what is created instead of giving glory to the Creator; Sagan said that it is not foolish to worship the sun and stars, and yet the church wants to bring this pagan religion into its doctrine. Colossians 2 clearly warns us against allowing this kind of world philosophy into the church:

    8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Instead of fearing God, many people are more intimidated by critics, more afraid of being called a fool, or afraid of being rejected by the world. Even in Jesus’ day, many who believed in Him were afraid of public ridicule. The turned their back on true faith because “they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God”.

There is a reason why proclaimers of Theistic Evolution are praised by anti-Christian groups, their message is of the world and therefore is loved by the world. As Christians, we should not allow intimidation to drive us into silence or into altering our beliefs. Many Christians take the ‘evidence’ for evolution at face value. They feel like they are stupid for taking the Bible literally, so they struggle to believe. Faith is not forcing ourselves to believing what our minds reject, but instead, faith is trusting in God. That trust is founded upon evidence. There is nothing wrong with proving what is true; in fact, we are commanded to do so. We are told to test all things and hold to truth and keep ourselves from every form of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:21-24).

It is a sin to deny the word of God and then try to be ‘enlightened’ by incorporating the words of men (i.e. Darwin and evolutionary prophets) into Christianity. The prophet Elijah confronted the people of his day. They were trying to keep enough of the scriptures to feel justified but then following the pagan god, Baal. Elijah said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people answered him not a word (1 Kings 18:21)
 
We stand in the same place. How long will we stand between two opinions? The Bible says it is impossible to serve two masters. If evolution is god, follow evolution, but if God is the Lord, follow Him. You can’t mix the two. Once you mix truth with error, it all becomes error. Jesus said that to worship God we must come to Him in spirit and truth. We try to marry falsehood and spirit not understanding that God will not accept false worship. To choose evolution is a rejection of God whether we want to admit it or not. The god of Theistic Evolution is just as much a pagan god as Baal. Each of us must choose who we are to serve.
http://www.exchangedlife.com/Creation/think/psych.shtml

[jordandog]

It isn't a "choice", though, it's freaking BLACKMAIL.  Worship me or burn  Sorry, Xtians, you messed that one up in terms of getting me to actually take you seriously.  This scare tactic may have worked on primitive peoples thousands of years ago, but we wear our big girl panties now in the 21st century.

Yeah I always had a problem with this as well...I think it is harmful to have created a Devil and Demons and Hell and then run around preaching it as truth!

You are contradicting yourself all over these forums, what's going on?! Now you support evolution and the Bible being on the same plane. You said you have NO problem with abortions in one topic, then post how against abortions you are and more pics of babies. Now you talk about how wrong devil, demons, and hell are AFTER lengthy posts screaming at many of us as devil worshippers who are bound for hell. Make up your mind! You have NO credibility because you are constantly and consistently all over the place with everything you say. Why is that everyone else will stick by what they stand for/believe in and you cannot?" Don't give me the BS about "you're learning, you're not perfect". No one is perfect and (hopefully) everyone continues to learn. How and why would you possibly expect anyone to bother listening to you when even you don't know what the h*ll you're saying? I still feel you ought to just sit back and 'listen' and 'learn' and stop with the incoherent ramblings.

I had to catch up on a ton of posts today and not one of your's came across as sincere or credible.

[jordandog]

marieelissa:

"Why are you yelling at me? I don't know what I believe but I am learning about things and getting input from other people.

Find me one place in that entire post where I am 'yelling at you'. Nothing is bolded, capitalized, or font size increased, and I am not swearing at you - that is yelling and you of all people should know that.
You just reinforced my point ie "I still feel you ought to just sit back and 'listen' and 'learn' and stop with the incoherent ramblings." You just said, "I don't know what I believe". Until you DO in fact know, like the majority of the posters in here, it might be a good idea not to post until you DO learn what you believe. All you are doing is upsetting people, including 2 that you have always had defending you to the rest of us. That speaks volumes right there.

[queenofnines]

You know what, this is pointless. There is a whole thread dedicated to logical evidence (a thread which you have posted on Case for a Creator). I have linked to several websites and one in particular that gives plenty of good evidence. It is your choice to read it, it is your choice to accept it. But obviously you have not chosen to read it. You claimed that you went through godisimaginary, methodically reading through all 50 proofs. Yet, when it comes to godandscience...I'm not seeing any evidence that you have read through it as methodically.

You call it pointless because I am able to knock-down any pro-god statement on here (and other threads, like Case for a Creator), yes?  I HAVE read through several of the articles on godandscience; so has my husband.  They can only be described as "slimeing through topics with tentacles".  They're very slick and convincing to those who do not critically read and/or question.

In terms of acceptance, there are some very basic, major flaws of Christianity (like the blackmail of hell or abundance of evil) that cannot be overcome and ruin the whole concept.  I do appreciate the challenge of beefing up my debating skills, however, and it is of course good to be in the loop on the latest tricks and tactics religion has going for brainwashing the masses.  This may sound harsh to you, but it is truth.

You do not WANT to believe in God and therefore any evidence or explanation is dismissed.

I already have believed in god, so what are you talking about?  

I think it'd be great if there truly was a *nice* god (none of that hell business); unfortunately, this is not reality.  Most people can delude themselves into thinking there is a god for a variety of reasons, and even in the face of clear evidence against their personal deity of choice, press on in their "faith" because they desperately want god to be true.  It takes a few strong men and women to be INTELLECTUALLY HONEST with themselves and realize hey, the universe doesn't owe me a god.  I can't change reality, no matter how uncomfortable I am with certain aspects of it (like only having one life).  And I'm okay with that.

* Many of the greatest scientists in history were Christians or had Biblical presuppositions.

Someone has already pointed out this is a silly thing for Christians to try to claim.  Of course most past scientists believed in god; we've only made tremendous progress in the past century or so!  Also, before Darwin, no one could explain the origin of life.  Therefore, many who claimed to be deists in the past would be ATHEISTS by today's standards had they known what we know.

93+% of scientists DON'T believe in god today.  That's not just a majority.  It's an overwhelming majority.

* For most of these, their faith was the driving force behind their discoveries.

O rly?  Thinking that you've had all of the answers from the beginning is NEVER a driving force for discoveries!  

* True self-sustaining modern science (not just engineering, logic or mathematics) was born within a Christian society.

So why was Galileo (and many other scientists) condemned by the Catholic church then, eh?  Why is your camp trying to have a monopoly on stem cell research?  Why do you call the well-supported fact of evolution "evilution" and try to teach that our Earth is a laughable 6,000 years old?

It is those who can leave the Bible on the bookshelf where it belongs that have contributed most to our progress.  To say that religion is even remotely supportive of science is so completely wrong, I'm surprised the author has the *bleep* to assert it.

[Mickey001]

Everything in life is a choice?  It can be a good choice or bad choice. Period.  Nothing else.

[queenofnines]

Carl Sagan said that evolution’s natural conclusion is atheism, but in his book ‘Cosmos’, Sagan stated:

    “Our ancestors worshiped the Sun, and they were far from foolish. And yet the Sun is an ordinary, even a mediocre star. If we must worship a power greater than ourselves, does it not make sense to revere the Sun and stars? “

God said that men would worship what is created instead of giving glory to the Creator; Sagan said that it is not foolish to worship the sun and stars, and yet the church wants to bring this pagan religion into its doctrine.

Poor atheist writers.  Always getting quoted out of context.    R.I.P. Sagan.

Even in Jesus’ day, many who believed in Him were afraid of public ridicule. The turned their back on true faith because “they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God”.

Interesting you should bring this up, as my husband and I had a discussion about this very thing in the car today.  He said, "Wow, Jesus must have done a really sh*tty job of convincing everyone that he was god.  He supposedly walked on water, healed the sick and blind, turned water into wine, etc. -- any reasonable group would NOT hang, torture, and murder a person like that!  So they must not have believed he was really god.  He had like, what?  Only 3 women or something and a few disciples that really believed him.  Everyone else HATED him.  That's pretty fishy because if one truly believed in the validity of a reward of heaven and the risk of hell, they would not deny someone claiming to be god just so they could "live it up" for the next 20 - maybe 50 - years of their puny, earthly life."

Faith is not forcing ourselves to believing what our minds reject

Of course it is!  You really must not think about things too critically to be a good Christian.    When you have a doubt, reasonable concern, or valid question, make sure you are stocked up on your "God did it!" stickers.  

(i.e. Darwin and evolutionary prophets)

There goes the slimy, falsehood terminology again.

If evolution is god, follow evolution, but if God is the Lord, follow Him.

Um, evolution isn't a deity.  It's a natural process and explanation.  I understand you hate science, Christians, but you should at least try to pick retorts that make sense.

Once you mix truth with error, it all becomes error.

Why do y'all not apply this tidbit to your Bible?  It's brimming with contradictions and errors.  http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

The god of Theistic Evolution is just as much a pagan god as Baal. Each of us must choose who we are to serve.

This is just crazy.

[shernajwine]

You call it pointless because I am able to knock-down any pro-god statement on here

No, I call it pointless because you keep asking me questions I have already answered.

I already have believed in god, so what are you talking about?

Just because you believed in God at one time doesn't mean anything. Calling yourself a christian because you go to church is like calling yourself a mechanic because you're standing in a mechanic's shop. You decided there was no God. You meticulously researched every bit of information you could get your hands on so to justify a belief so that you would no longer be held accountable to a God you never bothered to understand. (And I say this based on the fact that you claimed you never read books or tried to prove anything about God when you were a christian).

Now you feel you have the answers to all the religious nonsense, and you don't WANT to believe in God. You don't read information looking for anything that logically explains scripture or gives evidence for God's existence, you read it with the intention of finding a flaw. You are not interested in finding out truth because you think you already found it. You are not reading the opposing information with an open mind to be proven wrong. You can say that isn't true but your real attitude about it comes out loud and clear. You claim godandscience is slimy....how so? What information do you have that reasonably contradicts the information?

I think godisimaginary is slimy and is convincing to those who take it at face value and don't critically read or question it. godandscience showed me where godisimaginary left out some important information in trying to prove the ineffectiveness of prayer. It didn't reference the latter website but since I had already read it, I realized how slimy it really was! It cited an experiment done and conveniently used an example that proved their point instead of citing the entire experiment which proved that prayer works. Slimy indeed.

I think you very INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST. That's my opinion of course.

I don't desperately want God to be true. If I could believe with reasonable logic and overwhelming evidence to prove he doesn't exist, I would be most happy to let go of a faith that is so demanding. God expects a lot from me and my sinful desires cause me discomfort in denying my sinful nature. Denying my sinful nature is what God expects. So would I like to not have to be morally accountable to a God that is perfect? ABSOLUTELY. But, I know better than that. I am not unhappy believing in God but it would certainly make things easier if God didn't really exist, wouldn't it? I could set my own moral standard and have no one to answer to.

[shernajwine]

Of course most past scientists believed in god

Associations of scientists who believe in God...they are not past scientists. My point was that you should argue with them but of course you probably think they are all delusional and just have some crazy need to believe.
    *  Access Research Network
    * American Scientific Affiliation
    * Association of Christians in the Mathematical Sciences
    * Canadian Science and Christian Affiliation
    * Christian Association for Psychological Studies
    * Christian Medical & Dental Associations
    * Christians in Science
    * Institute on Religion in an Age of Science
    * Metanexus Institute
    * Pascal Centre
    * Presbyterian Association on Science, Technology, and the Christian Faith
    * Reasons To Believe
    * Science and Religion Forum
    * Zygon Center for Religion and Science



It is true that scientists believe less in the existence of God than the general population of the United States. However, the recent study by Ecklund, and Scheitle reveals that the most important factors in belief were related to upbringing and family status, and not area of expertise. The fact that social scientists as well as those in the natural sciences expressed nearly the same disbelief in God suggests that rejection of God's existence is not a result of knowledge in any particular area of expertise. It is likely that those who have rejected religious morality (i.e., those who were cohabiting) wanted to justify their behavior by saying that there was very little truth in any religion. The conclusion by the authors:

    "Instead, particular demographic factors, such as age, marital status, and presence of children in the household, seem to explain some of the religious differences among academic scientists... Most important, respondents who were raised in religious homes, especially those raised in homes where religion was important are most likely to be religious at present."http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_are_scientists_atheists.html

Visit the page for more information about the study. Unless of course it's too slimy for you 

[shernajwine]

When you have a doubt, reasonable concern, or valid question, make sure you are stocked up on your "God did it!" stickers.

Or better yet, get our your "evolution did it" stickers  After all thats what evolutionists did with the Cambrian explosion. They can't explain it, they tried with punctuated equilibrium, but you can't believe in gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, but who cares if it can't be explained by evolutionary theory. Let's just say "evolution did it" because that's the only answer that's logical.

Chemical origins of life are not provable, but that's okay "evolution did it". We know it can be explained by evolution, we just can't explain it at this moment...but we will eventually cuz you know "evolution did it"

 

[queenofnines]

Just because you believed in God at one time doesn't mean anything.

It sure does!  You seem to have a TON of false stereotypes stored upstairs about atheists, Sherna.  I sincerely believed in the Christian god; I'll scan images of the church sermons I made a book of sometime to prove it.  I know what you are talking about by "mushy" believers who only say they believe in a god when asked, but then live their lives very secularly.  I wasn't one of those.  I was involved in several church groups, went to revivals, had a MySpace and book started about Jesus, and even wrote on dollar bills directing people to a site about hell.  

It's pretty insulting for current Christians to claim that anyone who has ever left the fold wasn't a True Christian (TM) to begin with.  How do you know??

You meticulously researched every bit of information you could get your hands on so to justify a belief so that you would no longer be held accountable to a God you never bothered to understand. (And I say this based on the fact that you claimed you never read books or tried to prove anything about God when you were a christian).

Another false stereotype.  I tried to prove god wrong so I wouldn't have to be "accountable"?  NO.  I simply desired to know if my beliefs were really real.  They turned out not to be.  As for reading Christian books and whatnot, as I mentioned before, I did read SOME, and was a regular attender of Bible studies and the like.  I was on the freaking PRAISE DANCE TEAM where our group would dance to a song before the congregation during church!!

you don't WANT to believe in God.

False stereotype #3.  It's not that I don't "want" to, it's that I am unable to.  I have this weird mind virus that cannot substitute man-made fiction for truth.  

You don't read information looking for anything that logically explains scripture

Why didn't god make the Bible so that it is accessible and easily understood by EVERYONE?  Seems to be that the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth are not so basic...why should god's word have to be "explained" or "justified"?  Shouldn't the word of god be clear as crystal?  This muddled, problem-ridden ancient text scribed by fallible men is the best the all-mighty creator of the universe could do??  Why did he choose to communicate with us via a book, anyway?  Surely something like "Copyright 1964, God" at the end of someone's DNA code would have been better?

You claim godandscience is slimy....how so? What information do you have that reasonably contradicts the information?

Because even when I've read it I've had to admit, "Hey, this is really slick!  This would have convinced ME as a believer!"  Anytime you've quoted that site, I've addressed the fault in their claims.

I would be most happy to let go of a faith that is so demanding. God expects a lot from me and my sinful desires cause me discomfort in denying my sinful nature. Denying my sinful nature is what God expects. So would I like to not have to be morally accountable to a God that is perfect? ABSOLUTELY. But, I know better than that. I am not unhappy believing in God but it would certainly make things easier if God didn't really exist, wouldn't it? I could set my own moral standard and have no one to answer to.

I hope you can at least realize the possibility that you may be mistaken about there actually being a god; that perhaps you, too, are just a casualty that got sucked into the head games that are required to believe in such things.  Once again, it makes me very sad that your religion tells you that you are a dirty, bad person simply for being born, and it makes me very angry that they've convinced you that an "all-loving" god will punish and torture you forever in a fiery furnace if you don't worship him.  You're only guaranteed one life, and this kind of superstitious dogma is what you're spending it on!

And hello, you'd still be morally accountable just the same without god.  The cops will still get you if you break the law, your spouse will still dump you if you abuse them, your friend will stop being your friend if you burn them too badly.  You'd still have society to "answer to", and if you chose to become a detriment to it, we'll gladly remove you from it (via prison).  ["You" is in general, not specifically you, Sherna  ]

As for things being "easier" that god doesn't exist, umm...yes and no.  Yes in that you'll realize you've been living life without god all along and have survived thus far; yes in that you'll strive to live your only life to the fullest rather than sacrificing parts of it for an afterlife that will never come; yes in that you'll no longer have to fear the awful invention called hell...no in that most of the world has not caught up mentally yet, making us live in the 21st century with Bronze Age ideas; no in that when you feel completely alone, you really are; no in that now you actually have to work HARD to get the things you want in life, you can't count on them just magically falling into your lap through prayer.

[queenofnines]

My point was that you should argue with them but of course you probably think they are all delusional and just have some crazy need to believe.

Not completely delusional!  Plenty of people can be highly intelligent and perform their jobs just fine without their god belief getting in the way.  It's called compartmentalizing.

the recent study by Ecklund, and Scheitle reveals that the most important factors in belief were related to upbringing and family status, and not area of expertise. The fact that social scientists as well as those in the natural sciences expressed nearly the same disbelief in God suggests that rejection of God's existence is not a result of knowledge in any particular area of expertise. It is likely that those who have rejected religious morality (i.e., those who were cohabiting) wanted to justify their behavior by saying that there was very little truth in any religion.

Hey!  This is actually one of the parts I read on my own on that site!

Yes, very slimy...so denying god has very little to do with a career that is devoted to discovering how the universe actually works?  Really?  Why such a high concentration of non-believers in this particular field, then?  Shouldn't the numbers of atheists be (mostly) evenly dispersed throughout ALL career fields?  But that's not what we see!

[cubarican210]

I have a question and I was wondering if someone who knows the Bible inside and out could answer it for me:

Why are there religious groups that say "God hates fags"? If God created humans and didn't want any of them to be gay why did he make some of them gay? And if you believe that homosexuality is a choice why did he give humans the ability to choose to be gay?

Well God doesn't hate his children. He gets angered by the choices they make. Being gay is a choice. God is merciful and He did give humans free will straight from the beginning. That's how Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit in the first place because He created them with free will. He was simply testing them and they failed. Therefore, they were punished and so were we. But now we can repent through Jesus Christ our savior because he died for our sins so that we may have eternal life. Everyone has a choice but God will always give you a way to get out of it. For example in this verse, Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Therefore, I conclude that being gay is merely a temptation and God does give a person a way to get out of it. It goes along the same lines as being a drug addict or an alcoholic.  As I have read and heard many testimonies at church about people who were gay and suddenly realized that it was a temptation that sucked them into that lifestyle in the first place. Then again I'm not God and I can't judge anyone. Jesus will be the one judging all of us once Judgement Day comes around not me.   

As for homosexuality,
this is what the bible says
Leviticus chapter 18 verse 22
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

It also goes on to talk about *bleep* as well. (No sex with animals.)


If you are interested in learning more, you can read the whole chapter on Unlawful Sexual Relations Leviticus Chapter 18 Verses 1 through 30. I hope this helped.

 

[cubarican210]

Well I've been reading some things here and I see some skeptics out there who don't believe in God but believe me when Judgement Day comes you will surely know it. Not one but all people, of all religions, all nationalities, different creeds, sects, countries, whatever will have to answer to Jesus on that day. He will be judging all of us. None of us are exempt. Repent before it's too late people. I just wish that I was alive during Jesus Christ's time. I would've definitely followed him. No question about it. Did you not read about the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls? About Caesar? Here's the verse that clearly states Caesar's name "Caesar's," they replied. He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." Luke 20:25 You know that famous Roman emperor that's mentioned in the Bible that we have to study about in social studies. What have teachers been lying to us all these years in school? I don't think so. It's definitely fact and definitely talked about in the Bible. Do you not realize that the middle east has been at war since Bible times? Israel is such a tiny country and it's protected. All the other countries around it fight to gain control of it and they can't. Just a little heads up before you start denying that God does not exist. I'll just have to pray at night for each and everyone of you. That's all because as Christians believe it or not that's what we do. Of course, for you skeptics who don't believe. How did we come to be then? Give me an answer, because it sure wasn't from evolution. I can tell you that much. If it was then there wouldn't be anymore gorillas, apes, or monkeys in the world. Don't you think? Just a few things to think about.     

[queenofnines]

Do you not realize that the middle east has been at war since Bible times? Israel is such a tiny country and it's protected. All the other countries around it fight to gain control of it and they can't. Just a little heads up before you start denying that God does not exist.

Oh really?  Countries being at war over something and having this mentioned in writing PROVES NOTHING.  Should we believe in Spiderman, then, since New York City is mentioned?

There's wars there BECAUSE people believe in god and stupid sh*t like "holy lands".  There's not wars there because there "is" a god.  BIG difference.  What about all of the wars BEFORE Christianity?  Does Athens getting invaded prove the Greek religions?  Obviously not.  Do some research before you claim these assertions!

I'll just have to pray at night for each and everyone of you.

Okay, but you'll be wasting your time.  And not in the way that you think.  To say "I'll pray for you" is such a phony, self-righteous statement.  I doubt you'll actually pray for any of us; it's just a "nice" thing to say, now isn't it?  I know you'll be up late watching Jimmy Kimmel instead.  lol

How did we come to be then? Give me an answer, because it sure wasn't from evolution.

Well I came from my parents, and they came from their parents, and so on...

If it was then there wouldn't be anymore gorillas, apes, or monkeys in the world. Don't you think? Just a few things to think about.     

*face palm*  YOU telling US to think after ending with a line like that?  Haha!

Thanks for showing that you really don't know anything about evolution.  Cubarican -- if Americans came from Europe, then why are there still Europeans?!  Oh noes!

[jordandog]

We were also at one time in the trees who got down in search of food and then started walking upright, eventually.

The Ramapithecines, which include such species as Sivapithecus and Ramapithecus, are the direct forebears of Australopithecus and therefore of man. Many anthropologists say it took man's ancestors, not man, not humans to go from living in trees to walking on the ground. It's estimated that happened four million to eight million years ago.

Ramapithecines is a genus of extinct primates, which are animals and NOT humans.