The Faith of Atheism

[liljp617]

RW: The basic claim of an atheist is that "there is no God."

This has already been dealt with.  This isn't the basic claim of atheists, because the overwhelming majority of atheists do not hold this basic claim.

[rwdeese]

This isn't the basic claim of atheists, because the overwhelming majority of atheists do not hold this basic claim.

1. I doubt you have an official count on what the majority of atheists claim - this is speculation.

2. The defined claim, which lexiographers determined through a very detailed lexiographic process, has determined that the basic definitive and foundational belief of atheism is the position that there are no deities. This process is very detailed. If you would like, I will share the process with you. It is much more scientific than the claim that you are making. Furthermore, the very etymological breakdown of the word atheism confirms this fact a = no; theis = god.

Here are all those who disagree with your personal viewpoint: Atheism

Skeptics Dictionary: Atheism is traditionally defined as disbelief in the existence of God.

Dictionary.com: The doctrine or belief that there is no god. Disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Merriam-webster.com: A disbelief in the existence of deity. The doctrine that there is no deity.

Urbanddictionary.com: A person who lacks belief in a god or gods. A person who believes that no god or gods exist.

Thefreediciontary.com: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Oxford English Dictionary: Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

The fact is that atheists have been trying for years to redefine who they are. One can see this in "Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist", by Dan Barker, or "God, Freedom and Immortality", by Antony G.N. Flew and Paul Edwards; or Atheism: A Philosophical Justification" by Michael Martin. Why? It helps them to alleviate their conscience! The redefined claim is that an atheist is not a person who denies the existence of a God, but rather a person without a belief in God. They claim that "denying something means that you have knowledge of what it is that you are being asked to affirm, but that you have rejected that particular concept (An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism, by Gordon Stein)." It sure makes one wonder why atheists so strongly contend against any theism. Afterall, if they truly hold that an atheist is a person withou a belief in god, why are they working so hard to deny that He exists - a very stgrange conundrum. The reason is quite simple - the reality is that all atheists do deny what is true. If they didn't, there would be no logical reason to evangelize those who embrace deity.



 

[emerald6786]

You have your opinion and I repspect that. However, religion does exist and their is a God. You haven't been reading about history very we'll. You have to come to your own determination, what to believe that's your choice. You are mistaken, you don't hold your own destination. What was meant for you, will be yours not for the taken, but if you've earned it. It's not your will but the higher forces will. On the other hand, If you make a choice to be and Atheis, well that leaves room for Satan to rule your life, and control your destiny. Believe me he does exist,when a person does something to hurt another without cause, whose in control? If a person decided to deceive another and take their possession and then befriend them, whose in control. And if that person feels no remorse, who do you think is in control. But if a person knows something is wrong and they feel guilt. Therefore, they will try to correct the problem. God is in control. It's very difficult to discuss our believe, because some may not agree. I you study the word, the history of the ancient creators, like the Egyptian, Roman Catholics, Buddist, and many other religious leaders. You will then find the answers you seek. Find your own way, don't just say I'm an Atheis, because saying that opens door that you will not be ready to open. The Evil one. God Bless and Good Luck!

[liljp617]

This isn't the basic claim of atheists, because the overwhelming majority of atheists do not hold this basic claim.

1. I doubt you have an official count on what the majority of atheists claim - this is speculation.

2. The defined claim, which lexiographers determined through a very detailed lexiographic process, has determined that the basic definitive and foundational belief of atheism is the position that there are no deities. This process is very detailed. If you would like, I will share the process with you. It is much more scientific than the claim that you are making. Furthermore, the very etymological breakdown of the word atheism confirms this fact a = no; theis = god.

Here are all those who disagree with your personal viewpoint: Atheism

Skeptics Dictionary: Atheism is traditionally defined as disbelief in the existence of God.

Dictionary.com: The doctrine or belief that there is no god. Disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Merriam-webster.com: A disbelief in the existence of deity. The doctrine that there is no deity.

Urbanddictionary.com: A person who lacks belief in a god or gods. A person who believes that no god or gods exist.

Thefreediciontary.com: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Oxford English Dictionary: Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

The fact is that atheists have been trying for years to redefine who they are. One can see this in "Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist", by Dan Barker, or "God, Freedom and Immortality", by Antony G.N. Flew and Paul Edwards; or Atheism: A Philosophical Justification" by Michael Martin. Why? It helps them to alleviate their conscience! The redefined claim is that an atheist is not a person who denies the existence of a God, but rather a person without a belief in God. They claim that "denying something means that you have knowledge of what it is that you are being asked to affirm, but that you have rejected that particular concept (An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism, by Gordon Stein)." It sure makes one wonder why atheists so strongly contend against any theism. Afterall, if they truly hold that an atheist is a person withou a belief in god, why are they working so hard to deny that He exists - a very stgrange conundrum. The reason is quite simple - the reality is that all atheists do deny what is true. If they didn't, there would be no logical reason to evangelize those who embrace deity.

err "disbelief" and and "lack of belief" mean the same thing (almost every definition you listed used the phrase lack of or the word disbelief).  Disbelief in something does not mean you believe that something doesn't exist.  Disbelief requires no faith; belief requires faith.  I lack belief in the existence of the Giant Spaghetti Monster, that doesn't mean I believe the Giant Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist -- one is faith-based (belief with out evidence), the other is not...it is simply the non-presence of a belief.  What you're telling me is that not collecting stamps is a hobby and that bald is a hairstyle.  Doesn't make any sense, it's illogical.  Untrue.

Breaking down the word, atheist, as you did:  The "A-" prefix in English has multiple meanings -- no, absence of, without, lack of, not, etc.  (http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/2838).  We get "no belief," "absence of belief," etc.

A lack of belief in something is not faith-based.  I lack belief in Allah; again, that doesn't immediately imply I believe Allah doesn't exist.  I frankly don't care if Allah exists, my belief in Allah is absent.

On a side note, there's really no point in generalizing atheists.  The ONLY true thing you can generalize about atheists is that they lack a belief in one or more gods.  There is no dogma as there is in religion, there are no central themes, there is no way to group large numbers of atheists together...beyond that one single point. 

[queenofnines]

Wow, I've never seen one person throw around the word "faith" so much in a thread.  And incorrectly at that!

Since when does an atheist claim an absolutes, yet, here, you make an absolute declaration! What is this based upon?

I simply said a firm WRONG because liljp617 had already addressed your claim quite nicely.  There was no sense in repeating exactly what he said.  But because you insist: you are wrong because the vast majority of atheists are smart enough to know that no one can ever 100% disprove the existence of something that is invisible.  Most atheists propose that it is extremely unlikely for a god to exist, but you sometimes might catch them making assertions that they KNOW there is not a god, and that is only because based on the evidence against defined gods, the possibility of them existing is so miniscule that it is appropriate to round it down to zero.

I do not know where you came up with the idea "you can't have a belief without evidence." People believe in many things without evidence!

I was saying that your use of the term faith against atheists was incorrect.  The main definition of faith is belief without evidence; intelligent atheists don't have "faith" that a god probably doesn't exist, they've looked at the EVIDENCE which confirms a god probably doesn't exist.  The exact opposite of faith!

And yes, "people" believe in many things without evidence (scientists don't!).  This doesn't make the things lay people believe true, however.  Logic always trumps emotions, and usually the things people are believing without good evidence are based on emotions (prime example: god).

"belief without evidence" is only one definition of faith, btw.

It is the main and most important one.

This so called "FACT that there is no tangible evidence for any god" is certainly a statement about something "believed" to be true by you based upon your own "fact" criteria.

It's true!  Pretty much every argument for god that believers give can be obliterated by science, reason, logic.  My "fact criteria" is based off of what has been proven, demonstrated, observed by professionals who devote their LIVES to discovering what is true (also logic, which can only be obtained by being intelligent).  And that's not an appeal to authority, that's an appeal to what WORKS.

A believer's "fact criteria", on the other hand, is almost entirely based on appeals to emotion.  Something good happens in their life and rather than realizing that it came about it in a completely natural way, attribute it to a god they already want to believe in.  A believer doesn't typically investigate, question, or analyze the dogmatic, unrealistic claims of their religion and if they do, they typically stick to like-minded pseudo-sources rather than creditable, objective ones.

placing your trust in your knowledge base, which cannot even hold 1% of the known knowledge in the State you live in, let alone the universe. Therefore, your conviction can only be based upon faith - period!

I've heard a believer try to pull this "fast one" before on The Atheist Experience.  You realize that the person making the claim that there is a god is the one who is in the position to prove it (burden of proof)?  Besides that, all we can do is live our lives based on our current pool of knowledge.  It doesn't serve any point believing in something that has yet to be proven; a person can really waste their life clinging to maybes, what-ifs, and unknowable possibilities.

So, there IS hard evidence against specific defined gods like the god of the Bible? Interesting philosophy, but it is really nothing more than a philosophical statement.

YES.  How is it philosophical to realize that the Bible has multiple contradictions, conflicts with science, and also makes Yahweh out to be completely barbaric while also saying that he is all-loving?  How is it philosophical to study the history of your religion and realize the only reason it was successful is because your lot SLAUGHTERED AND TORTURED anyone who didn't believe?  You also had books thrown out of the Bible that sounded too bat-*bleep* crazy.  The only "philosophical" things are those that relate to common sense, like how does an all-loving, perfect god send people to hell for FINITE crimes to be tortured INFINITELY?

Anyone who has taken a few basic science courses in college knows how the "evolutionary theory" changes, morphs, and contradicts itself every five years.

Evolution is a fact.  It happened and still happens.  HOW it happens is a THEORY, still open for discussion and improvement.  Anyone who has graduated beyond their few basic science courses knows that.  

In fact, evolutionary scientists so disagree with themselves now that some would argue that there is no such theory anymore. If you are basing your atheism foundation on the crumbling contradictions within the evolutionary scientific community, I would say it is time to get out of the house! Believe me when I say that I am not even including the creation science community in my analysis! 

Again, it is completely bizarre how theists trash the science that goes against their Biblegod while at the same time taking advantage of a computer to type on, a fridge to keep their food safe, a car to get them places, shots to keep them healthy...go live in a cave and stop being a hypocrite if you really trust your sky daddy more than science!

And no, evolution is not the main reason I personally don't believe in Jesus.  Do you seriously think there is better evidence for your 6,000-year-old Earth?

One thing that studies have proven is this: all five senses can be deceived - that makes it quite unbelievable that one would place one's faith in them!

And god gave you your five senses, right?  What does that say about him?  lol  Your senses can be deceived, but they can also give you a workable enough picture of reality.

I notice you make this claim about everyone who disagrees with you.

I notice you only have ~30 posts under your belt, so can I seriously believe you've been stalking all of my posts?  For the record, I've only consistently called marieelissa a troll because she is one (I can get at least 10 people on this forum to back me up on this one).  You haven't been around long enough to see yet.  All I was saying is you were being purposefully provoking (like a troll) in your statement.  I certainly don't make such a claim just because a person disagrees.

Some of the most intelligent minds in America have declared atheism a religion

Appeal to authority.  We don't have a book of dogma, we don't have weekly religious services, we don't demand tithes or a tax-exempt status...come on now.

Do you really want to place your faith in your own reasoning abilities?

This is such a laughable question.  It requires the very reasoning you speak of to form such a question!  

That's all anyone can do, and you do it too.  You can only attempt to grow in knowledge to better your reasoning abilities.

I do not believe for a moment that everything an atheist believes is based upon what is "TESTABLE and TRUE."

Give me some examples of things an atheist could believe that aren't then.

They choose only those evidences that support their presuppositions, so even if one were to present other evidence, it wouldn't matter - their faith is too strong in their presuppositions to consider any alternatives!

Here's your favorite again: WRONG.  The vast majority of us would not be so stupid as to deny real evidence for god if it were presented to us.  The problem is, theists have failed time and again to do this.  We wouldn't be happy if you could prove it's your Biblegod that is the real one (because he's an evil pr*ck), but we couldn't say we don't believe in him.  On the contrary, it is most theists who are sticking their fingers in their ears, shielding their eyes, and making excuses for real evidence that conflicts with their notion of god.

Nice deflection, however, the fact of the matter is that atheists do not determine when or how they are going to die, so they are under an illusion that they are in charge of their own destiny. In fact, even if they write out their ten year plan, they will discover that all the details of the plan will not be what they thought they would be at all in 99% of the cases.

Hmm, well I certainly don't think of the day I die as my destiny.  Life is about LIFE, not death.  The journey is what's really important, not the fact that one day it will end -- you are greatly in control of how happy your life is.  I guess I'm weird in that I don't come up with any 5/10/20 year plans; I have some basic things that I want to accomplish, but I don't put a timeline to them and I know I will be successful because I already have experience being successful, and that is my personality to actually get things done (what I just described does not apply for a lot of people).  

And people CAN have some control over their deaths: if you don't want to die early, it's better if you don't binge-drink, weigh 500 pounds, or walk around the bad part of town late at night.

Not everyone believes in situation ethics - sorry!

And those who go against the good of the whole by murdering, stealing, or raping get thrown in prison.

Yes, I have ignored countless commandments.

And I bet I can guess why...it's because you value being right with society over what god's word commands you to do.  Also you inherently know stoning disobedient children or non-virgin women to death is wrong; you disagree with your god's morals, you just don't want to admit it.  Gee, I guess that makes you "self-righteous"!

[jordandog]

I've lived with an atheist with an IQ of over 160 for 18 years...he is my step-dad.

Cool, maybe you should take some cues from him.     There are statistics on the more intelligent/educated a person is, the less likely they are to believe in god.  Have you talked to him about it?

Yes I have...he is really smart and knows his stuff. My mom is a believer so I kinda am left on my own to decide for myself maybe that's why most of the time I am agnostic because I just can't tell if God is there or not.

I highly doubt I will get a reply to this, but you are once again contradicting yourself. You said awhile ago, in a thread on marriage, that your parents were still together. You also informed me, about a week ago, that you knew much more about the Bible than I did because your dad is a PREACHER. Now you say you have lived with a stepdad for 18 years and he is an atheist. What exactly is the truth and how can you expect us NOT to call you out on this stuff?! It is as if you post whatever is convenient at the time/makes you look like you know something, but you never remember what you have said previously. I don't trust a word that comes out of you anymore unless it is someone else's words you have copied and put down here.

[rwdeese]

   I gotta hand it to the atheists where faith is concerned, God knows it takes ALOT more faith to believe there is no God than it takes faith to know there is.

Yes, atheists do have a lot of faith. They place a great deal of faith in their own reasoning abilities - to the point that they create their own criteria for what determines real evidence. So, if anyone challenges their parameters, then they can dismiss it as unreasonable. Thus, maintaining their belief system inspite of any evidence to the contrary.

[rwdeese]

err "disbelief" and and "lack of belief" mean the same thing (almost every definition you listed used the phrase lack of or the word disbelief).  Disbelief in something does not mean you believe that something doesn't exist.  Disbelief requires no faith; belief requires faith.  I lack belief in the existence of the Giant Spaghetti Monster, that doesn't mean I believe the Giant Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist -- one is faith-based (belief with out evidence), the other is not...it is simply the non-presence of a belief.  What you're telling me is that not collecting stamps is a hobby and that bald is a hairstyle.  Doesn't make any sense, it's illogical.  Untrue.

Atheism claims that their creed is "simply the non-presence of a belief," however, it is only a "non-presence of a belief" in a higher power. The result is that atheism has created its own faith - fiath in reason, faith in self, faith in the perimeters of their own criteria. They trust these things implicitly, which makes it a very fickle sort of faith. Afterall, there isn't an atheist out there that knows more than 1 percent of any form of information of the planet, yet, declares there is no God. This is quite arrogant indeed, IMHO. Because of this arrogance, most will not objectively look at any evidence that contends against this faith.

Breaking down the word, atheist, as you did:  The "A-" prefix in English has multiple meanings -- no, absence of, without, lack of, not, etc.  (http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/2838).  We get "no belief," "absence of belief," etc.

Yes, it may have more than one meaning. However, I was using the usus generalis principle of hermeneutics.

A lack of belief in something is not faith-based.  I lack belief in Allah; again, that doesn't immediately imply I believe Allah doesn't exist.  I frankly don't care if Allah exists, my belief in Allah is absent.

On a side note, there's really no point in generalizing atheists.  The ONLY true thing you can generalize about atheists is that they lack a belief in one or more gods.  There is no dogma as there is in religion, there are no central themes, there is no way to group large numbers of atheists together...beyond that one single point. 

IThe general position of "absence of a faith" in God is a statement of faith. To deny that fact is outside of normative communication. Those who BELIEVE that they have No-present belief" in a diety came through trusting their own conclusions. It is impossible to come to this understanding without trusting that ones own understanding is correct - that is faith!

[queenofnines]

The "statistics" referred to are from where exactly?...there are MANY, MANY, MANY Believers that not only have college educations and many degrees....some have started well known colleges, hospitals, a multitude of charities, well known businesses & more. 

Ask and you shall receive:

"In 2008, intelligence researcher Helmuth Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. His results, published in the scientific journal Intelligence demonstrated that on average, Atheists scored 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions.  "I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical," says the professor.

Nyborg also co-authored a study with Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, which compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries. [6] The study analysed the issue from several viewpoints. Firstly, using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 g-IQ points higher than those adhering to a religion.
Secondly, the authors investigated the link between religiosity and intelligence on a country level. Among the sample of 137 countries, only 23 (17%) had more than 20% of atheists, which constituted “virtually all the higher IQ countries.” The authors reported a correlation of 0.60 between atheism rates and level of intelligence, which is “highly statistically significant.”

"Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

"In the US, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, those with graduate degrees were the least likely to believe in the afterlife or the Bible as the word of God, suggesting a link between religious belief and lower educational attainment."

~ http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W4M-4TFV93D-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=db2ee09bae0195cc1ecbd026da77245c

"93% of members of the American National Academy of Science don't believe in God.  Nature Magazine's latest survey finds that, among the top natural scientists, disbelief is greater than ever — almost total.  The survey found near universal rejection of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists. Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. The highest percentage of belief was found among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality)."

~ Leading scientists still reject God Nature, Vol. 394, No. 6691, p. 313 (1998) Macmillan Publishers Ltd.

"It is true that studies have repeatedly shown a correlation between atheism and education levels. The more education a person receives — especially in the sciences — the less religious they become and the less likely they are to remain theists. The exact nature of the relationship between atheism and education is a matter of dispute, but the existence of some sort connection is clear and not really debated.

It is also true that higher education levels generally correspond with better income — the more education a person has, the more they will earn over their lifetime. The connection between education and income is even less controversial than that between education and atheism, but it suggests that in America, atheists tend to be a bit better educated and probably tend to make more money that the average. Usually, it is assumed that people with more education and money are privileged, not the victims of bigotry and discrimination." ~about.com


Note that no one is saying ALL atheists are intelligent.  Note that no one is saying ALL theists are stupid.  Certainly there are many brilliant believers that can "compartmentalize" their god beliefs and not allow them really to affect their jobs or common sense.  And I thank them for that.  My beef is with the people who cannot compartmentalize.

[rwdeese]

The "statistics" referred to are from where exactly?...there are MANY, MANY, MANY Believers that not only have college educations and many degrees....some have started well known colleges, hospitals, a multitude of charities, well known businesses & more. 

Ask and you shall receive:

"In 2008, intelligence researcher Helmuth Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. His results, published in the scientific journal Intelligence demonstrated that on average, Atheists scored 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions.  "I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical," says the professor.

Nyborg also co-authored a study with Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, which compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries. [6] The study analysed the issue from several viewpoints. Firstly, using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 g-IQ points higher than those adhering to a religion.
Secondly, the authors investigated the link between religiosity and intelligence on a country level. Among the sample of 137 countries, only 23 (17%) had more than 20% of atheists, which constituted “virtually all the higher IQ countries.” The authors reported a correlation of 0.60 between atheism rates and level of intelligence, which is “highly statistically significant.”

"Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

"In the US, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, those with graduate degrees were the least likely to believe in the afterlife or the Bible as the word of God, suggesting a link between religious belief and lower educational attainment."

~ http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W4M-4TFV93D-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=db2ee09bae0195cc1ecbd026da77245c

"93% of members of the American National Academy of Science don't believe in God.  Nature Magazine's latest survey finds that, among the top natural scientists, disbelief is greater than ever — almost total.  The survey found near universal rejection of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists. Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. The highest percentage of belief was found among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality)."

~ Leading scientists still reject God Nature, Vol. 394, No. 6691, p. 313 (1998) Macmillan Publishers Ltd.

"It is true that studies have repeatedly shown a correlation between atheism and education levels. The more education a person receives — especially in the sciences — the less religious they become and the less likely they are to remain theists. The exact nature of the relationship between atheism and education is a matter of dispute, but the existence of some sort connection is clear and not really debated.

It is also true that higher education levels generally correspond with better income — the more education a person has, the more they will earn over their lifetime. The connection between education and income is even less controversial than that between education and atheism, but it suggests that in America, atheists tend to be a bit better educated and probably tend to make more money that the average. Usually, it is assumed that people with more education and money are privileged, not the victims of bigotry and discrimination." ~about.com


Note that no one is saying ALL atheists are intelligent.  Note that no one is saying ALL theists are stupid.  Certainly there are many brilliant believers that can "compartmentalize" their god beliefs and not allow them really to affect their jobs or common sense.  And I thank them for that.  My beef is with the people who cannot compartmentalize.

This is rather humoorous. Why? Well, anyone who has went to college and has studied the basis of the IQ test knows that it is a test on specific knowledge. It does not test intelligence. What it does say is that the moreknowledge one accumulates, the more one is likely to deceive himself into believing that he/she is more intelligent. Knowledge is knowledge - there is no reliable test on this planet that demonstrates true intelligence!

[rwdeese]

Quote from above:  Cool, maybe you should take some cues from him.     There are statistics on the more intelligent/educated a person is, the less likely they are to believe in god.  Have you talked to him about it?    The "statistics" referred to are from where exactly?  There are so-called "statistics" posted by unreliable sources I've seen on the internet, they can't seem to give a credible source for these statistics of theirs so that's why I ask.  I haven't seen a credible source post statistics for that yet as there are MANY, MANY, MANY Believers that not only have college educations and many degrees....some have started well known colleges, hospitals, a multitude of charities, well known businesses & more. 

Hi Sheryl

You should know that the IQ test does not measure intelligence. It actually measures memory more than intelligence. It is built upon how much one knows about various subjects. Hence, a person who comes from a lower educated school district may appear to have a low IQ, but it may be only because he wasn't taught well. The IQ test is one of the most popular urban myths out there!

[queenofnines]

This is rather humoorous. Why? Well, anyone who has went to college and has studied the basis of the IQ test knows that it is a test on specific knowledge. It does not test intelligence. What it does say is that the moreknowledge one accumulates, the more one is likely to deceive himself into believing that he/she is more intelligent. Knowledge is knowledge - there is no reliable test on this planet that demonstrates true intelligence!

You can think it's humorous, all I was trying to say is there are plenty of studies out there that are making this claim.  Yes I am aware that an IQ test isn't something that's black-and-white...there are some people who are exceptions, but let's face it; if you didn't pay attention in school and don't have a modest idea of how the world really works, you're more likely to believe in fairytales.  If you were never taught how to CRITICALLY THINK (which a lot of our education system does a horrible job of teaching), it's not even going to occur to you to doubt or question the fantastical claims of your feel-good religion.

I find it funny you start off by saying "anyone who went to college" and then end by bashing knowledge.  You contradict yourself.  And it is certainly not deception that the more knowledge one accumulates, the more likely they are to be intelligent.  More knowledge can only be a good thing, and for you to say otherwise is quite appalling.  Criticizing the pursuit of learning and discovery is something a fundamental nut job does -- "don't think - it's from THE DEVIL!!!"

You seem likely a smart guy, can I ask you what are your honest reasons (i.e. afraid of death) for needing to believe in a god so badly?

[shernajwine]

Hosea 4:6 (King James Version)

 6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee...

Hosea 4:6 (The Message)
4-10 "But don't look for someone to blame.
   No finger pointing!
You, priest, are the one in the dock.
   You stumble around in broad daylight,
And then the prophets take over and stumble all night.
   Your mother is as bad as you.
My people are ruined
   because they don't know what's right or true.
Because you've turned your back on knowledge,
   I've turned my back on you priests.
Because you refuse to recognize the revelation of God,
   I'm no longer recognizing your children.

the bible doesn't teach not to think for yourself

Proverbs 22:12 (The Message)

 12 God guards knowledge with a passion,
   but he'll have nothing to do with deception.

[rwdeese]

You can think it's humorous, all I was trying to say is there are plenty of studies out there that are making this claim.  Yes I am aware that an IQ test isn't something that's black-and-white...there are some people who are exceptions, but let's face it; if you didn't pay attention in school and don't have a modest idea of how the world really works, you're more likely to believe in fairytales.  If you were never taught how to CRITICALLY THINK (which a lot of our education system does a horrible job of teaching), it's not even going to occur to you to doubt or question the fantastical claims of your feel-good religion.

1. The American education system is a joke in many ways. You are right. It doesn't teach people to think - hence, evolution! None the less, the european model, where I have begun my Ph.D studies is much more research, and thinking oriented.

2. Atheism is a feel good religion too. In fact, it is because of "feelings" more than facts that atheists exist at all. You see, it feels good to do all those things that those of faith say are wrong. I remember asking one atheist in a debate this question: "I said if I could proof to you without a shadow of a doubt by empirical evidence that God exists, would you follow Him?" He told me "absolutely not!" That answer is so revealing as to the real motives of most atheists. In fact, I have found very few true empirical atheists. Most are "if it feels good, lets do it, because we embrace no accountability for our actions!"

I find it funny you start off by saying "anyone who went to college" and then end by bashing knowledge.

I don't bash true knowledge. I bash the brain washing system of American education, in particular.

You contradict yourself.

Actually, your statement qualifies as a false disjunctions: an improper appeal to the law of the excluded middle. In other words, you made a logical fallacy by assuming that I look at things in a false either/or worldview.

 And it is certainly not deception that the more knowledge one accumulates, the more likely they are to be intelligent.  More knowledge can only be a good thing, and for you to say otherwise is quite appalling.  Criticizing the pursuit of learning and discovery is something a fundamental nut job does -- "don't think - it's from THE DEVIL!!!"

Being brainwashed isn't necessarily a good accumulation of knowledge. I remember a friend of mine who went before a board for his final disseration to receive his Doctorate in Philosophy. Behind the scenes they bacially told him that if he didn't present the phlosophy of the staff, he would not receive his doctorate. He prsented his thesis anyway (it was conservate, and they were liberal), and they failed him. However, he had kept all the notes, and conversations along the way. He sued the university and won. He now has a Ph.D, but he had to fight for it because of the pressure to believe what certain professors wanted him to believe.

I had an experience similar when I was receiving my Masters. I publically disagreed with my professor, so he downgraded my midterm test to the lowest grade I had ever received in my life. I apologized to him personally in his office. He then created an assignement for me so I could get an A out of the class. These kind of things go on all the time! The only point I am making is that education, in and of itself, does not mean one is smart or educated! It may mean they have followed popular opinion!

[qutoe]You seem likely a smart guy, can I ask you what are your honest reasons (i.e. afraid of death) for needing to believe in a god so badly?
[/quote]

Actually, I had a specific encounter with God. I did not begin to follow Him based upon a fear or knowledge. My encounter was so powerful that unless I had experienced myself, I would have never have believed it. I suppose the closet oBiblical example is apostle Paul. One day he was killing Christians. The next day he was a believer!

[shernajwine]

rwdeese---I enjoy your posts!!  

ditto