I THINK GOD AND HIS SON ALL REAL WHAT YALL THINK?

[angel379227]

And what exactly is Jesus Christ message? Please enlighten me.

I'm not here to preach his message, only to defend it. If you truly seek enlightenment I suggest you read something other than Watchtower.

Unless these quoted are what you're speaking of (poisoned statements) and they're 'idiot-proofed' so people can't mold them into whatever, it sounds like Jesus was the first hippy. Why would one defend these messages when all Christians are guilty of not following these rules? And even with that guilt, it makes no logical sense to defend them, right? I want your .02 on this.

Ah, at last we seem to disagree enough to spark up a discussion. Firstly, it should be noted that the defense I give is not for what's become of his message, but rather its source. I do not defend Christianity in its individual state, but as it was meant to be practiced, as a representation of the ideals and morality of the man that was Jesus.

Secondly, it certainly would seem that Jesus was in effect the first hippy, at least in spirit. In fact, Jesus' message was one of the driving forces behind that movement, aside from a crap load of drugs, and was in essence a direct rebellion against the oppression of religion and the misguided ideals associated with its practitioners. Peace, love, get a lil twisted on occasion-- sounds like the hippies had the right idea cookin. I've heard worse messages advocated in my days.

So tell me, Falconer, do you believe that the message should be criticized or ridiculed for what's become of it, or for what you believe Jesus Christ intended it to be?

I'll be the first to agree that most Christians today are as big an impediment to the progression of society as North Korea, just to be clear.

[teflonfanatic]

And what exactly is Jesus Christ message? Please enlighten me.

I'm not here to preach his message, only to defend it. If you truly seek enlightenment I suggest you read something other than Watchtower.

Unless these quoted are what you're speaking of (poisoned statements) and they're 'idiot-proofed' so people can't mold them into whatever, it sounds like Jesus was the first hippy. Why would one defend these messages when all Christians are guilty of not following these rules? And even with that guilt, it makes no logical sense to defend them, right? I want your .02 on this.

If you can't preach his message then how can you be a true christian? That's what Jesus told his disciples to do at matthew 28:19-20. As for saying my denomination is poisoning the message then provide proof with your allegations, instead of just saying that my denomination is poisoning the message because the majority of christianity is poisoning the message. As for reading other so-called christain material I have and here's what I found.

1. The material Leaves out god's name
2. Babylonish teachings are venerated



Ah, at last we seem to disagree enough to spark up a discussion. Firstly, it should be noted that the defense I give is not for what's become of his message, but rather its source. I do not defend Christianity in its individual state, but as it was meant to be practiced, as a representation of the ideals and morality of the man that was Jesus.

Secondly, it certainly would seem that Jesus was in effect the first hippy, at least in spirit. In fact, Jesus' message was one of the driving forces behind that movement, aside from a crap load of drugs, and was in essence a direct rebellion against the oppression of religion and the misguided ideals associated with its practitioners. Peace, love, get a lil twisted on occasion-- sounds like the hippies had the right idea cookin. I've heard worse messages advocated in my days.

So tell me, Falconer, do you believe that the message should be criticized or ridiculed for what's become of it, or for what you believe Jesus Christ intended it to be?

I'll be the first to agree that most Christians today are as big an impediment to the progression of society as North Korea, just to be clear.

[angel379227]

wut

[teflonfanatic]

Ok I cannot quote

Here's what I was saying:

If you can't preach his message then how can you be a true christian? That's what Jesus told his disciples to do at matthew 28:19-20. As for saying my denomination is poisoning the message then provide proof with your allegations, instead of just saying that my denomination is poisoning the message because the majority of christianity is poisoning the message. As for reading other so-called christian material I have and here's what I found.

1. The material Leaves out god's name
2. Babylonish teachings are venerated
3. HARDLY PRACTICE WHAT THEY TEACH

[angel379227]

Okay, I apologize for speaking ill of your faith. I will say that I agree with a great many perspectives shared among Jehovah's Witnesses concerning the bible, but I've had the misfortune of knowing quite a few JWs in my time and have been positively chagrined by what can only be desrcibed as unnecessary strictures and practices that your faith adds to an already repressed and strict religion. Perhaps "poison" was too strong of a word. "Further dilution" may have been a better way to describe it.

Also, unless I misunderstood your post, I'd like to point out that I am most certainly not Christian.

[teflonfanatic]

Okay, I apologize for speaking ill of your faith. I will say that I agree with a great many perspectives shared among Jehovah's Witnesses concerning the bible, but I've had the misfortune of knowing quite a few JWs in my time and have been positively chagrined by what can only be desrcibed as unnecessary strictures and practices that your faith adds to an already repressed and strict religion. Perhaps "poison" was too strong of a word. "Further dilution" may have been a better way to describe it.

Also, unless I misunderstood your post, I'd like to point out that I am most certainly not Christian.

Oh, so you agree with what they teach but you can't bare the fact that their moral code is strict? As for unnecessary strictures and practices that your faith adds can you tell me some?

[angel379227]

Oh, so you agree with what they teach but you can't bare the fact that their moral code is strict? As for unnecessary strictures and practices that your faith adds can you tell me some?

Firstly, I made no reference to your morals-- I myself have a strict set of morals I try to adhere to. Concerning your unnecessary strictures, allow me to elaborate. To begin with, you're not allowed to celebrate any holiday except "The Memorial of Jesus Christ" because they are all of pagan origin (this includes birthdays and Mother's Day, for shame). Also, you have a practice called "disfellowship" (i.e. excommunication), which is the punishment for those guilty of practicing any form of paganism, like reading tarot or watching Harry Potter, science forbid. If someone if disfellowshipped you're to cease contact with him or her, whether it be your best friend or even your father. You are to be "no part of the world", as you believe Jesus was, so you're discouraged from associating with anyone else not of your faith in anything more than a cursory fashion. You're told to make seriously unwelcome door-to-door visits to members of your community, bringing your ideals and religion and plopping them on our doorsteps. Finally, you're branded an apostate if you frown on any or all of these practices.

All very unnecessary, but that's my opinion.

[Falconer02]

So tell me, Falconer, do you believe that the message should be criticized or ridiculed for what's become of it, or for what you believe Jesus Christ intended it to be?

I'm one to think defending it is a lose-lose situation here. The messages I quoted seem as if JC is telling people to lower their defenses and be taken advantage of and trampled over. But by not doing this and protecting yourself, Christians are disobeying their protagonist. I won't ridicule but I will criticize-- I would venture to say it's a bit naive of a man to tell people to do these things and just say "Don't worry! Take the pain! You'll be rewarded!". Who in there right mind would do that? Especially in the present? I'm fortunate to see that Christians have practically dismissed it.

[teflonfanatic]

Oh, so you agree with what they teach but you can't bare the fact that their moral code is strict? As for unnecessary strictures and practices that your faith adds can you tell me some?

Firstly, I made no reference to your morals-- I myself have a strict set of morals I try to adhere to. Concerning your unnecessary strictures, allow me to elaborate. To begin with, you're not allowed to celebrate any holiday except "The Memorial of Jesus Christ" because they are all of pagan origin (this includes birthdays and Mother's Day, for shame). Also, you have a practice called "disfellowship" (i.e. excommunication), which is the punishment for those guilty of practicing any form of paganism, like reading tarot or watching Harry Potter, science forbid. If someone if disfellowshipped you're to cease contact with him or her, whether it be your best friend or even your father. You are to be "no part of the world", as you believe Jesus was, so you're discouraged from associating with anyone else not of your faith in anything more than a cursory fashion. You're told to make seriously unwelcome door-to-door visits to members of your community, bringing your ideals and religion and plopping them on our doorsteps. Finally, you're branded an apostate if you frown on any or all of these practices.

All very unnecessary, but that's my opinion.

Yep and it's all in the bible yes the JW's follow that, here are some scriptures that support that. PLEASE READ THE WHOLE THING I SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON THIS :-

Disfellowshipping REQUIRED:

1 corinthians 5:11(NWT) reads 11  But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.

Titus 3:10,11(NWT) reads 10  As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; 11  knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned.

Romans 16:17,18(NWT) reads 17  Now I exhort YOU, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that YOU have learned, and avoid them. 18  For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones. As for science the JW's are not amish, as you can see i'm using a computer 0_0, I play video games, and I watch some science programs.

Birthdays HAVE PAGAN ORIGIN:

Genesis 40:20(NWT) reads 20  Now on the third day it turned out to be Phar´aoh’s birthday, and he proceeded to make a feast for all his servants and to lift up the head of the chief of the cupbearers and the head of the chief of the bakers in the midst of his servants.

Oh, well would you look at that sun worship origin, if you did some research on the holidays it's not hard to see that most of them have origins in spiritism or nationalism. As for celebrations and gatherings that is ok, I have been to weddings and I've been to friends house to eat, play etc. I've been to a few cookouts as well. Basically if it doesnt originate with god and it venerates spiritism or a world ruler the JW's don't do it.

THE PREACHING WORK MUST BE DONE:

Romans 10:10(NWT) reads 10  For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.

2 Timothy 4:2(KJ) reads 2  Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all long-suffering and doctrine.

Matthew 28:19,20(NWT) reads 19  Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20  teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD:

James 1:22(NWT) reads 22 However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.

James 2:14,17(NWT) reads 14  Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15  If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, 16  yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? 17  Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.

Matthew 7:21(NWT) reads 21  “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

Matthew 10:22(KJ) reads 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:  but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13 reads 13  But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.

NO PART OF THE WORLD:

John 17:14(NWT)  reads 14  I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

1 John 2:15,16(NWT) reads 15  Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16  because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world.

Finally, you're branded an apostate if you frown on any or all of these practices.

This is true, but in time the person can come back if he/she changes his thinking. The person is labeled in apostate "after" the person gets baptized not before and only if the person publicly attacks the organization with lies or doubt.

Acts 20:30 reads 30  and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

In conclusion: yes the JW's can seem strict but then again so is the bible's moral code. Although the moral code is strict, the JW's don't live in one giant FLDS plain and don't attend school, work etc. Hey the bible says do all things for god's glory.  1 corinthians 10:31 reads 31  Therefore, whether YOU are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory.












 

[angel379227]

Dude, I most certainly do not need scriptural evidence, as I own a copy of the Watchtower CD. What I find so humorous is that your faith picks and chooses the practices it wishes to revive. You select which passages from the bible suits your purposes best but then disregard the rest as being irrelevant to our times.

Also, I'd like top point out that the majority of scripture you're quoting here is from books written second-hand by followers of Jesus Christ who were themselves trying to discern his message. Not all of them got it exactly right, so you should consider finding out for yourself what it was that Jesus was trying to say rather than relying on what the Catholic church told you should be included in your holy doctrine. Oh, and tell your parents you wish to study God without the constraints of their beliefs, see what happens.

By the way, the New World Translation is horribly mistranslated. Might I recommend a NIV with footnotes?

[teflonfanatic]

Dude, I most certainly do not need scriptural evidence, as I own a copy of the Watchtower CD. What I find so humorous is that your faith picks and chooses the practices it wishes to revive. You select which passages from the bible suits your purposes best but then disregard the rest as being irrelevant to our times.

Also, I'd like top point out that the majority of scripture you're quoting here is from books written second-hand by followers of Jesus Christ who were themselves trying to discern his message. Not all of them got it exactly right, so you should consider finding out for yourself what it was that Jesus was trying to say rather than relying on what the Catholic church told you should be included in your holy doctrine. Oh, and tell your parents you wish to study God without the constraints of their beliefs, see what happens.

By the way, the New World Translation is horribly mistranslated. Might I recommend a NIV with footnotes?

NWT is not mistranslated, in fact it pretty much surpasses most bibles, also I included some KJ scriptures if you haven't noticed. The JW's are not catholics for these reasons.

1. Catholics believe that the millenium already happened, the JW's don't believe this
2. Catholics believe in the trinity, the JW's don't believe this
3. Catholics believe in eternal torment, the JW's don't believe this
4. Catholics believe you can use the saints to pray to god, the JW's don't believe this
5. The catholics either supported hitler or fought against him or both??!!! The JW's didn't do this

Also, I'd like top point out that the majority of scripture you're quoting here is from books written second-hand by followers of Jesus Christ who were themselves trying to discern his message. DUH IT'S CALLED THE GOSPELS and it's ok to follow what they did since they were with Jesus.

You select which passages from the bible suits your purposes best but then disregard the rest as being irrelevant to our times.  The JW's study the whole bible from genesis to revelation, every week where reviewing the chapters we read in the book where studying.  I.E. one month were reading genesis, next month it's leviticus etc.

P.S. i'm trying to understand where your coming from but your all over the place spiritually. You said you have a watchtower CD!!!! Did you ever study with them or did a friend give you a copy?

[angel379227]

i'm trying to understand where your coming from but your all over the place spiritually. You said you have a watchtower CD!!!! Did you ever study with them or did a friend give you a copy?

I am "all over the place spiritually"-- what a simplified but accurate way to describe it. One of my main concerns with religion today is their insistence that all other faiths in this immensely diverse world of ours are mistaken, in some shape or form, while theirs is the most efficient and/or worthy path to God. To me, that line of thinking represents a narrow-mindedness that I just could not accept in my quest for understanding. I cared enough about my then relationship with God to study as much as I could of him, from a variety of faiths and spiritual teachings, and in doing so I've discovered more about what spirituality means to me than I ever could just reading the bible and going to church. After all, when we seek to understand a worldly matter, or even if we're studying up on something for school, would we consider but one source because we're led to believe it's the only source? I should hope not.

So yes, I do own a copy of The Watchtower CD, much to my chagrin, but I also own copies of the Qur'an, the Dhammapada, many vedas of Hinduism, every translation of the bible both common and uncommon to Christianity and it's off-shoots, and much more.

next month it's leviticus etc.

Have fun with that. Be sure to ask your instructor why you're required to follow some passages in the bible to the letter but not those found within this particular book. Just don't be surprised if you come out of this lesson hating shrimp and homosexuals.

[teflonfanatic]

Ok, I think I finally understand you. You believe that all paths lead to the same god basically, yet you don't choose one path because you don't want to be subject to the clergy or whatever you call it of any religion/denomination.  So, in turn you have developed your own sort of religious independence.  I do take a look at other religions and their beliefs but not to the point where it's flat-out theology or interfaith.

Have fun with that. Be sure to ask your instructor why you're required to follow some passages in the bible to the letter but not those found within this particular book. Just don't be surprised if you come out of this lesson hating shrimp and homosexuals. Were did you get shrimp from? As for as hating homosexuals yeah you might be right but i'm not going to kill any of them or make fun of them. As for not following some passages in the hebrew-aramaic scriptures we can't today, if that was possible everyone would have to kill animals everyday and kill people everyday for sinning which is obviously not allowed today.

P.S. Why did you stop studying with the JW's

[angel379227]

As for not following some passages in the hebrew-aramaic scriptures we can't today, if that was possible everyone would have to kill animals everyday and kill people everyday for sinning which is obviously not allowed today.

So, to be clear, you only follow strictures to the letter if they're allowed by today's laws? Well in that case you shouldn't have any trouble not wearing multi-fabric clothes, never cutting your hair nor shaving, or disallowing anyone who is blind, crippled, or have flat noses from approaching the alter of God? Let's not forget no eating anything in the ocean that does not have fins and scales (e.g. shrimp), and absolutely no bacon. These are all strictures you'll find in Leviticus, among many other horrendous laws.

What I'm trying to get through here is that every book in the bible was written by man interpreting his own spirituality, and it's very clear that throughout the course of the bible's history there have been many different interpretations. If you allow these to guide you then you're limiting your own spiritual growth.

Food for thought: there are passages in the bible that tell us we should kill anyone of a different faith. If this is not evidence that this book is not the absolute authority on the word of God then I don't know what could be.

P.S. Why did you stop studying with the JW's

Because I found their interpretations of how their faith should be practiced almost as appalling as those of Catholicism. I will say this though, at least yours is based on scripture and not outright fiction.

[teflonfanatic]

As for not following some passages in the hebrew-aramaic scriptures we can't today, if that was possible everyone would have to kill animals everyday and kill people everyday for sinning which is obviously not allowed today.

So, to be clear, you only follow strictures to the letter if they're allowed by today's laws? Well in that case you shouldn't have any trouble not wearing multi-fabric clothes, never cutting your hair nor shaving, or disallowing anyone who is blind, crippled, or have flat noses from approaching the alter of God? Let's not forget no eating anything in the ocean that does not have fins and scales (e.g. shrimp), and absolutely no bacon. These are all strictures you'll find in Leviticus, among many other horrendous laws.

What I'm trying to get through here is that every book in the bible was written by man interpreting his own spirituality, and it's very clear that throughout the course of the bible's history there have been many different interpretations. If you allow these to guide you then you're limiting your own spiritual growth.

Food for thought: there are passages in the bible that tell us we should kill anyone of a different faith. If this is not evidence that this book is not the absolute authority on the word of God then I don't know what could be.

P.S. Why did you stop studying with the JW's

Because I found their interpretations of how their faith should be practiced almost as appalling as those of Catholicism. I will say this though, at least yours is based on scripture and not outright fiction.

*Gets ready for my 5 min talk on the penalty of sin for tonight*

Catholicism? Your probably referring to the JW's  interpretation of chronology?

As for explaining why some laws in the hebrew-aramaic scriptures are not applied today I'll get back to you on that with scripture "gtg" but for now i'll just say there's the law before christ and then there's the after christ. The ransom at john 3:16 get rid of a lot of mosiac laws such as animal sacifice. Keep asking questions angel i'll brb *goes to prepare for my talk*.