dosen't the story of jesus sound like hercules??

[502mania]

A christian man once told me hell is in the core of the earth. i though "if a volcano erupts, it woul free millions of people. so that definately is not valid...

[shernajwine]

The existence of hell is illogical in itself because it allows for the impossible

Materialist philosophy says it's impossible. Not science. 

Uh, did you read the article he posted?  It does describe it in scientific terms to some extent.

Falconer -- "Oh my god!" that blog entry was awesome!

Another scientific explanation of why hell isn't possible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7ggUpyLSpc

Let me get this straight. You are going to say that since science can't observe God, He doesn't exist. Heaven can't be observed, doesn't exist...but science can disprove hell with chemistry?? If you are going to use materialist philosophy to deny the existence of God, devil, and anything else supernatural, due to it's untestablility; why all the sudden try to use science do disprove the supernatural existence of hell? That makes no sense.

Either by your natural world view hell doesn't exist due to it's invisible nature OR the supernatural ISN'T impossible and now science can use it's natural method to falsify it. Which is it gonna be?

[Falconer02]

Either by your natural world view hell doesn't exist due to it's invisible nature OR the supernatural ISN'T impossible and now science can use it's natural method to falsify it. Which is it gonna be?

Well first let me state that the article I posted was more of a 'gag argument' because it's applying the natural to the mythological. It does not compute-- I just found it funny. Sorry about that; I should have made it more clear. Secondly it just bluntly covered both ends-- hell cannot exist naturally because of it going against the testable evidence nor can it exist supernaturally due to it pointing to an evil and/or imperfect god.

A christian man once told me hell is in the core of the earth. i though "if a volcano erupts, it woul free millions of people. so that definately is not valid

We had a user here a long time ago that said those exact things and posted all these nutjob articles. He. Was. Nuts. He had his myspace in his sig and it had videos of him screaming at people on the streets at night saying they were sinners. Cars were just slowly going by-- I imagine the drivers were just going "...wth?" Holy crap it was hilarious and scary at the same time. Just as Sherna stated, it's people like those who give present Christians a horrible name. I'm kicking myself for not bookmarking that myspace though. It was one for the books! I guess I'll have to settle and show you...THIS! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPiMhPL4vmc&feature=related I'd pay to hear this guy go "BONESAW IS RRREEEAAADDDYYYYY!"

[shernajwine]

Well first let me state that the article I posted was more of a 'gag argument'

LOL You took away my fun. I was ready to tear that one UP! 

[queenofnines]

If you are going to use materialist philosophy to deny the existence of God, devil, and anything else supernatural, due to it's untestablility; why all the sudden try to use science do disprove the supernatural existence of hell?

What is this "materialist philosophy" catchphrase you keep using?  Clearly it's something you got from one of your sites to try and sound smart and authoritative.  I am not to be labeled with what you speak of...my reasons for hell being an impossibility are much simpler.

Hell can can be dismissed on BOTH ethical/logical grounds *and* scientific ones.  I've already listed the at least 6 reasons why hell can't exist, but the top 2 are: it is NOT just nor loving to have billions of people tortured forever for finite crimes (that is just SICK) and how exactly are we to see/feel/hear/smell ANYTHING without physical bodies??

My words explaining this all don't do this subject matter justice.  It won't sink in unless you allow it to sink in.  I was you once; I didn't really think about hell because I wasn't going there!  And guess what?  That is an incredibly SELFISH position to be in.  Once one actually starts to THINK about the absurdity of a "loving" god allowing someone who merely told a white lie or stole a candy bar to be in pain FOREVER, it's clear that this so-called omni-benevolent, omnipotent god cannot logically exist.

Would it still be satisfying to all of you believers if hell didn't exist?  You know, if things went down how they ACTUALLY should with Yahweh: you can choose to follow him and get heaven, or you can choose to live your own life and then just die, because it is YOUR CHOICE after all, why should you be punished for exercising that free right?  I think a lot of people are just sick and would be disappointed if there wasn't a hell.  And this is because they mostly just don't think about HOW horrible an eternity of suffering really would be.

[Falconer02]

And this is because they mostly just don't think about HOW horrible an eternity of suffering really would be.

People don't think about how living for eternity would be absolute hell in itself either. The Greek gods envied mortals for their ability to die. And so did the Q from Star Trek! :-B

Also, adding to your post, remember the old metaphor for a little kid disobeying his parents and them sending him to his room for the rest of his life? How fair and loving is that?

[shernajwine]

What is this "materialist philosophy" catchphrase you keep using?  Clearly it's something you got from one of your sites to try and sound smart and authoritative.  I am not to be labeled with what you speak of...my reasons for hell being an impossibility are much simpler.

Lol, actually I didn't get it off of ANY website and I'm not trying to "sound" like anything. I also read books 

Science does not deal with the supernatural, it's method can only observe and test natural things. Scientific method cannot prove or disprove anything supernatural. Materialism/naturalism/physicalism says that BECAUSE science can't test the supernatural, it does not exist. Science has to be able to falsify something for it to be reality.

You cannot try to use science to falsify supernatural places, beings, or events. And since you have stated everything is physical, you stated a philosophical idea.

Once one actually starts to THINK about the absurdity of a "loving" god allowing someone who merely told a white lie or stole a candy bar to be in pain FOREVER, it's clear that this so-called omni-benevolent, omnipotent god cannot logically exist.

You REALLY don't understand ANYTHING regarding the purpose of the Christs sacrifice or any sacrifice made in the OT for remission of sin. People do NOT go to hell for sinning. The blood of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ, did away with the bondage of sin, once and for all. Only-people-who-reject-that-will go to hell.

And I don't even believe they will be in hell forever....going to hell is actually referred to several times in scripture as a "second death". I believe this is spiritual death and there are several scriptures saying that hell, devil, and all souls there will eventually be destroyed. But the bible doesn't give a lot of detail about hell, because that is not God's and shouldn't be our focus.

I didn't really think about hell because I wasn't going there!  And guess what?  That is an incredibly SELFISH position to be in

No it isn't. I am not concerned about hell. I am concerned about the people that may go there so my focus is on praying them through to salvation and being a good representative of Christ in my own life.

You know, if things went down how they ACTUALLY should with Yahweh: you can choose to follow him and get heaven, or you can choose to live your own life and then just die, because it is YOUR CHOICE

Cheer up then.  As I stated above there is reason to believe, based on scripture, that the torment doesn't last for eternity. I know you take issue with where I get some of my information especially godandscience, however Rich Deem gives scriptural backing to what he says about hell.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/hell.html

If you prefer to maintain that it lasts for eternity so you can continue to try and save people from Christianity though, I understand 

[Falconer02]

You cannot try to use science to falsify supernatural places, beings, or events. And since you have stated everything is physical, you stated a philosophical idea.

You're completely right. The magical purple cabbage-eating gnome in my car tells me this every morning. And here I am refusing to listen. Shame on me 

Only-people-who-reject-that-will go to hell.

I reject it and will never accept it. Please tell your god through telepathy this and hopefully he'll spare me!

If you prefer to maintain that it lasts for eternity so you can continue to try and save people from Christianity though, I understand

I think the problem here is your god plays with a stacked deck. I play my games straight and without some player shifting the odds in his favor. Cheaters are jerks even if they start the game.

[jcribb16]

"Oh, woe is us..."  Neither of us is going to sway the other.  But, at least we are all trying.  Sorry, I am just too plain tired to debate much today. Keep up the great work!!!!   

[shernajwine]

"Oh, woe is us..."  Neither of us is going to sway the other.  But, at least we are all trying.  Sorry, I am just too plain tired to debate much today. Keep up the great work!!!!   

Lol, I'm exhausted myself. My son was up all night throwing up and I'm only surviving off of coffee right now!

I'm not trying to sway anyone really though. I think it's important that all sides are represented for the people that are reading these posts, whether they are commenting on them or not. Like queen saying the catholics are the original christians.  That is a false statement and she can believe that if she wants but I want other people who may not otherwise research that for themselves, to recognize that that isn't the truth.

[jcribb16]

"Oh, woe is us..."  Neither of us is going to sway the other.  But, at least we are all trying.  Sorry, I am just too plain tired to debate much today. Keep up the great work!!!!   

Lol, I'm exhausted myself. My son was up all night throwing up and I'm only surviving off of coffee right now!

I'm not trying to sway anyone really though. I think it's important that all sides are represented for the people that are reading these posts, whether they are commenting on them or not. Like queen saying the catholics are the original christians.  That is a false statement and she can believe that if she wants but I want other people who may not otherwise research that for themselves, to recognize that that isn't the truth.

That's actually what I mean.  Thanks much!! Hope your son is doing better today. 

[queenofnines]

Science does not deal with the supernatural, it's method can only observe and test natural things. Scientific method cannot prove or disprove anything supernatural. Materialism/naturalism/physicalism says that BECAUSE science can't test the supernatural, it does not exist. Science has to be able to falsify something for it to be reality.

This is one of my least favorite "arguments" for god.  So god's not testable, you say?  We just have to "believe"...kind of like magic?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UezK1ouBenU

You cannot try to use science to falsify supernatural places, beings, or events.

We sure can for 2 out of 3 of those.  Compare your supernatural being of choice to any other that humans have truly believed in that is now extinct.  You also have to ask if your god being passes the test of logic, and any personal god that has been presented thus far doesn't (http://www.evilbible.com/Impossible.htm).  And so you are left with, "Well god isn't 'logical' - you just got to have faith!"  That notion doesn't fly in any other aspect of your life, so why does an all-powerful being get a free pass?

As for supernatural "events", most anything said to have come about by prayer can be explained naturally.  I've broken down several people's examples of "answered prayer" on here before.  It's really not that hard to do, but it IS hard for them to accept it.  They really want to believe they're "special" and "protected"...when statistics show, "god" favors NO ONE (that is, good/bad things happening are pretty much equal for everybody).

The only one I can sort of give you is supernatural places...y'all used to say heaven was in the sky and hell was in the earth, but we can prove this isn't the case through SCIENCE.  So now heaven and hell conveniently reside in some alternate dimension...untouchable, untestable, but also unprovable.  Believing in things for which you have no good evidence is BAD...and you have no good evidence for heaven or hell.

Like I said before, the problems of how exactly am I to feel pain without a physical body comes in to play, and that relates to science.

since you have stated everything is physical, you stated a philosophical idea.

Everything being physical isn't philosophical...it's reality.

Only-people-who-reject-that-will go to hell.

So Hitler's in heaven, yes or no?  He was a Catholic.  Oh wait, you think Catholics are fake Christians...  

And I don't even believe they will be in hell forever....

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. - Matthew 18:8

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:46

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. - Matthew 25:41

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. - Mark 3:29

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.  Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. - Jude 1:7-8

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. - Mark 9:43


...these are just a few of the MANY examples from the Bible on how this made-up place called hell is FOREVER.

But whatever; I expect nothing less of Christianity to rewrite what the Bible actually says.  It's already been done thousands of times, what's a few more, eh?  Especially if they can make it more palatable to the masses...

[queenofnines]

Cheer up then.   As I stated above there is reason to believe, based on scripture, that the torment doesn't last for eternity.

Are you being serious?  

Okay, let's make it personal: even IF this hell place was only "temporary", let's imagine for a sec that one of your 3 kids dies at the age of 20 and they only kinda/sorta believed the Jesus thing, so they go to hell.  Imagine the worst pain you've ever been in in your life and amplify that to the Nth degree.  That is what your daughter will be going through 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for possibly thousands or even MILLIONS of years.  

As her mother, are you really going to care that her suffering will eventually end in 19573 A.D.?  "Hell" no!!!  You're going to be pissed and distraught that your baby is being tortured AT ALL simply for having not yet been convinced of god before she died.  She was a sweet girl, but now you're wishing you had never had her so you could have spared her from such an awful state.  And when you die, you never get to see her again.  

How could you possibly revere a god where such an occurrence is mandated not just for your daughter, but BILLIONS of other (mostly innocent) people??  It's not just atheists you say are going there, but the other 2/3 of the planet that hold a *different* religion.

[shernajwine]

Everything being physical isn't philosophical...it's reality.

Naturalism is a metaphysical doctrine, which means simply that it states a particular view of what is ultimately real and unreal. According to naturalism, what is ultimately real is nature, which consists of the fundamental particles that make up what we call matter and energy, together with the natural laws that govern how those particles behave. Nature itself is ultimately all there is, at least as far as we are concerned. To put it another way, nature is a permanently closed system of material causes and effects that can never be influenced by anything outside of itself-by God, for example.  To speak of something as "supernatural" is therefore to imply that it is imaginary, and belief in powerful imaginary entities is known as superstition. Reason In The Balance

So god's not testable, you say?

No He isn't. There is evidence in nature to support the claim that there is a Creator based of evidence for design. But you cannot use scientific method to determine who that creator is....that goes into the realm of theology.

You also have to ask if your god being passes the test of logic

Logic is a way of getting from premise to conclusion. Logic works from metaphysical assumptions, or pictures of reality, and it leads to very different directions depending on the starting point.

Believing in things for which you have no good evidence is BAD...and you have no good evidence for heaven or hell.

There is no good evidence to support the claim that the cause of the universe was natural. There is no good evidence to support chemical origins...in fact there is significant problems with that theory. But despite the lack of observational evidence for a naturalistic cause for the universe, and despite the lack of evidence for an evolutionary mechanism to create the information necessary for life in a single cell, (correct me if I'm wrong) you believe the universe had a natural cause and that SOMEHOW there is an evolutionary mechanism capable of creating information so that life itself is caused by purposeless natural processes.

So back to your statement? Believing in things for which you have no good evidence is bad?

So Hitler's in heaven, yes or no? He was a Catholic.  Oh wait, you think Catholics are fake Christians..

Hitler committed atrocities that go against the bible, it doesn't matter what religion he claimed to be. And again, merely having a belief in God does not save you. You have to accept Him, you accept the sacrifice of Jesus for your sin and you love God with all your heart mind soul and strength. Obviously Hitler did not love God. What he did love was Darwin's idea that inferior races of human beings should be eliminated. 

And I never said catholics were fake Christians, I said the catholic doctrine contradicts the bible. I know many people who call themselves catholic but do not follow the doctrine. I don't know why they still call themselves catholic but I don't really care what they call themselves or what sect of Christianity someone belongs to, if they (in their own personal life) know and love Jesus. God has the patience to reveal His true nature to people as they grow spiritually.

Are you being serious?

Yes and no. I care deeply whether my children would go to hell or not. It is disturbing to think of any harm coming to my babies. However, as they grow older and make choices....as with anything, they will have to deal with the consequences of their choice. It is a choice that they will make, it is my job to raise them so they know how much God loves them and how important they are to Him and even when they hit those rebellious teen years, that knowledge will never leave them.

And you and Falconer both have made false statements about heaven. Such as getting bored and having sinful thoughts in heaven.

Although the Bible discusses heaven, it is not possible to understand the full nature of heaven from a human perspective. Since heaven is where God lives, it must contain more physical and temporal dimensions than those found in this physical universe that God created. We cannot imagine, nor can we experience in our current bodies, what these extra dimensions might be like. Even so, we are given enough information in the Bible to understand many of the things that will be different in heaven compared to our lives today.
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/heaven.html

I expect nothing less of Christianity to rewrite what the Bible actually says

My referenced author did not rewrite what the bible actually says. The scriptures referenced in the site I linked to are not changed scriptures. As I said, the bible does not focus on hell and there are different interpretations of what little scripture we have to go on. I can't say I know for sure yet, I'm still praying and learning plenty about the bible and I am constantly learning where I used to believe wrongly about something the bible said.

[Falconer02]

To speak of something as "supernatural" is therefore to imply that it is imaginary, and belief in powerful imaginary entities is known as superstition.

As I've pointed out before, you do realize believing in the 'defined supernatural' without the evidence damages your stance, right?

There is evidence in nature to support the claim that there is a Creator based of evidence for design. But you cannot use scientific method to determine who that creator is....that goes into the realm of theology.

I could give you credit for looking for a creator within the realms of science, however looking for your own god with pre-defined notions is completely biased.

you believe the universe had a natural cause and that SOMEHOW there is an evolutionary mechanism capable of creating information so that life itself is caused by purposeless natural processes.

Define purposeless. Because all life, sentient or non-sentient, strives to stay alive and add to itself. All except the emos.

Hitler committed atrocities that go against the bible, it doesn't matter what religion he claimed to be. And again, merely having a belief in God does not save you. You have to accept Him, you accept the sacrifice of Jesus for your sin and you love God with all your heart mind soul and strength. Obviously Hitler did not love God. What he did love was Darwin's idea that inferior races of human beings should be eliminated.

You didn't answer the question. Given the idea that if he killed all of those people and then near his death he repented, accepted god, prayed for forgiveness, etc., would he go to heaven? You obviously have your defined god down pretty well-- I don't know why this would be hard to answer. And linking the holocaust to Charles Darwin is left to the non-questioning close-minded masses who follow the misinformed Kirk Cameron and Ben Stein around like they're the Beatles. Please tell me you don't really think Hitler based his views on Darwins writings-- you seem much smarter then pulling that ol' "Answers-in-Genesis" B+W junk. If so, I would suggest we end the argument here.

Although the Bible discusses heaven, it is not possible to understand the full nature of heaven from a human perspective. Since heaven is where God lives, it must contain more physical and temporal dimensions than those found in this physical universe that God created. We cannot imagine, nor can we experience in our current bodies, what these extra dimensions might be like. Even so, we are given enough information in the Bible to understand many of the things that will be different in heaven compared to our lives today.

Like above, this is biased reasoning to argue your stance. Talking dimensions is one thing, but talking dimensions which hold mythological places is completely different.