Dispute in Arizona

[Falconer02]

Now you'll probably want their socials, date of birth and phone numbers to confirm it.  

Hahahah YES! I DEMAND THEM NOW!

citizenship has taken a long time but it is not like they had to jump through hops every single day to get it.

Well okay judging from your experience and others I have to say it changes way too much (story-to-story) so the whole thing is within the eye of the beholder.

My coworker showed me the bill today. I skimmed it earlier so if anyone wants to educate themselves on it, here ya go--

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
Edit: I think the OP should throw this in the 1st post if he reads this post.

I think it'll prove beneficial if anyone wants to quote the problems and solutions it can bring forth.

[Rastov]

TSeveral centuries ago before there were any Spanish, or Italian, or English, colonizers on this continent, which we know as Turtle Island, and extends from the southern tip of South American to far northern Canada, as they are known today, there was only one race of people here. There were no Mexicans, Americans, Canadians, or what you know as Native American etc.
There were only the single race of folks who were and arethe Indigenous of this continent.

Trouble is, we're all native to Africa not North America. We evolved there, all of us. The Asian people got here about ten thousand years before the whites. Before that we'd all been living in Africa for over a million years.
So in the history of humanity, an Asian tribe beats a white tribe to a piece of land by less than %1 and then they permanently own it, based on race(which is obviously radically different than say a white or black person).

Either your racial make up doesn't factor in to past generations, or it does. Either way, your argument is illogical.

Later, various colonizers such as the Spanish and the English arrived with their weird ideas concerning land ownership, and eventually made up all these make believe lines, which they placed onto their maps and declared them borders.

I'm going to have to call BS on this one. This wasn't a foreign concept to native peoples.
The Peruvian empire as well as the Aztec most certainly did have territories, and fought wars to claim land from other "native" tribes.

Our Relatives, south of your border, may have been forced to some what assimilate into a more Spanish culture, they are still our Kinsmen. [...]
I could go on and on on this subject but hopefully by now you can get some small inkling as to how the YOUR immigration issue, pertains to Native Americans, as you call us(I am not american any thing, I am Tsalagi!)

The Mexican government doesn't allow undocumented immigration from South America. Nor do most latin American countries.
So "your people" now disagree with you on this topic. Whatever your ancestors may have believed, it is no longer a common belief held by your cousins.

--
There are cases of whites who had left their Europian counterparts, and lived with the Indians. They were in some cases accpeted as part of the tribe. That was because your ancestors didn't care about race. They cared about community. A white man could be Sioux. He just needed the heart and culture of a Sioux.
That is all I ask of the people in my community, America.
Be they white, black or Hispanic, I ask that they become part of our culture, and part of our people.
If they don't wish to do this, then let them go back to their people.

I think you yourself have adopted a white Europian concept. One of race, rather than community.

[hwilliams591]

I never heard of the Turtle Island, Tsalagi or who ever other people you are crying about and don't care

That is basically all you ever had to post in this thread.

That sentence shows that you are simply an un-educated red neck that has the usual "I am right, and you are wrong, end of story" self absorbed, supremacist attitude of the ruling class in this hemisphere.

However, you lack the knowledge of the subject matter to make an intelligent argument as to why you are right.

My suggestion to you would be to take Obama up on one of his grants and go get educated before injecting your self into a discussion you have no knowledge of and showing your ignorance.

Come on back once you finish that education that your parents tax dollars, bought and paid for.......they didn't pay me to teach you any thing and I wouldn't be interested were they to try to.

Right now you are just an embarrassment to your relatives......go make them proud.

Calling me a redneck is probably the funnist thing posted on this forum! You assumptions make you look ignorant. And you have nothing useful to teach me, as far as I'm concerned you are on the bandwagon crying to get attention.

I never said I knew it all, but the only thing I admit I have no knowledge of is your race. It has NO importantance to me at all! But as I said your cause or cry is not what WE were talking about in this post. It may in your mind have something to do with the LAW that has been here for a very long time, but not with the topic at hand.

You are the embarrassment as your assumptions and racial name calling have got the best of you.

[walksalone11]

Some of what you posted I agree with, some I don't.

Yes back in the day there were many more "tribal adoptions" by non-Natives then there is today, however it is still practiced in rare cases. The most famous recent event, was the adoption, by a tribe of Obama.

However, modern concepts, including that of blood quantum as well as others that have been forced upon us makes that practice very perilous to our future survival as a distinct race as well as our culture as a whole, so is necessarily very rare today.

The fact that our ancestors were open to immigration by others has little to do with race and more to do with our belief that the Earth was created for everyone, and one does not own what was created and rightfully belongs to Creator.

Historically, territory disputes had to do with carrying capacity of a given location. Just as in modern times, a given location can only support a finite number of inhabitants without doing definite and severe damage to the region to the detriment to the Earth as well as all inhabitants.

The effects of this is very apparent all around us, today.

The idea was not that we owned the piece of ground we inhabited, we were simply, safe guarding its ability to sustain us for an indefinite period of time.

I have many non-Native friends who I consider relatives, and I welcome them to my home at any time they please.

I know many natives and in fact Nations, who frown upon "nons" participating in Ceremony.
As a rule, I have no problem with nons participating in most Ceremony, based upon whether they "come in a good way" etc.
That said, there are some ceremony that is closed to outsiders, and there are in fact some in each tribe that are exclusive to only certain members of that tribe, medicine persons or Spiritual advisers for instance. I fully support these restrictions.

Your promotion of forced assimilation is a very old tired worn out concept that is totally immoral, and very superioristic in its concept, and application.

It is one that has been attempted with varying degrees of success for over 500 years now, and one that most of us simply will not endorse nor submit to.

And why should we?

We are not so self absorbed and feel so supreme that we demand that everyone be like us.
Everyone no matter their race, religion or most any other preference they may have have the right to embrace those personal ways so long as they do not cause damage to others.

The concept of assimilation not only damages cultures but in fact destroys them over time.

The fact that there have been separate Nations, tribes, communities etc for all time has not, in and of itself, infringed upon anyone elses ability to be themselves.
It does however, promote diversity and compliments the the Nation as whole in many ways and should be encouraged, not forced out of existence. 

Your truth may not necessarily be my truth, your heros may not be my heros, and most definitely some of your traditions and celebrations are not something we would celebrate.

Forced assimilation, is a very supreamacist concept and totally unacceptable.

If your ways work for you, great, I am very happy you are comfortable with them and encourage you to practice those ways exclusively, however, your ways don't fulfill many and should not be forced upon them.

As for your theory of Asians coming here 10,000 years before whites, therefor we must be descended from them, doesn't wash......that would be what.....16,000 years ago or so?

Sorry.......
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+40,000+year-old+American+pioneers-a0133777588

And even this proves nothing to me concerning who came first, the vast majority of our history has been passed down orally, and a great deal of it has been scientifically authenticated.

We have our creation stories that very from Nation to Nation, and the one from my own People clearly describes how we came to be on Turtle Island, and that is my truth.

Feel free to embrace your own truth, and you are welcome to present it to myself and my Peoples, just please, do not try to force us into embracing it ourselves to the exclusion of out own traditions.

[Sweetpea94]

What has out country come to?  We are supposed to be a country that welcomes other nationalities into our country so they can see what the United States has to offer.  I agree that people should come into the states legally and have the paperwork they need to stay the time allotted to find out how to become a citizen or they should get the necessary paperwork so they can work here.  I realize that its a lot of work to become a citizen and that it can become quite expensive especially when there are large families wanting to come over, but rules laws have to be enforced.  I think that Arizona has gone a little far and I'm thinking that maybe there's a little prejudisim and racial issues going on with the people that are coming up with these laws.  I think maybe they need to be reminded that the Indian people that were here first didn't ID their ancestors when they came over on the Mayflower and took over this part of the world.

[Rastov]

What did I say about forced assimilation? Your people were incredibly abused and suffered a genocide at the hands of the Europians. I'm not in any way condoning what happened as far as colonization went.
However, what we have today is not forced assimilation. We have very nearly the opposite at the moment. If you want to join our community, then come here and do so. If you prefer your current country, then why not stay there?


And your comment about destroying cultures cuts both ways. We aren't invading Mexico anymore and demanding changes. We have a peaceful free flow of individuals. Mexico is not a dangerously impoverished country. You don't run the risk of dying by living there. True, you can't as easily own a new washing machine or a 52" television, but you'll manage just fine.
I don't see what there is to complain about when someone is sent back to the place they feel they most belong. Aside from well... the hunt for cool stuff 

[showbert22]

     Yes Stokeman, you have stirred the pot. I herewith make my apologies to the grammar police. I did miss some punctuation, and misspelled 'and'. I apparently did not make my point clear, either. I am a native born American of European descent. I don't speak English only, I also read and write French and Spanish. When travelling in Mexico, I have passed as Mexican, even to Mexican Immigration authorities. If I should be talking to a Hispanic friend in South Phoenix in Spanish am I, by extension, suspicious because I speak more than one language? The Phoenix Police Department has some very good officers. It has also hired some idiots and I am unapologetic for using the term. I have seen abuse after abuse of civil rights right here on my own block, the manhandling of City Council members by police rookies in other parts of town notwithstanding. My neighbors, non-Hispanic, have been stopped while walking the dog, asked for ID and told that they could not use a public thoroughfare. The officer was making up the law as he went along. It is a common tactic here for police to try intimidation to rattle an individual or lead him into incriminating statements or actions. I know people so scared of a badge they run the other way for no reason whatsoever. I myself, have been followed home by a police officer and asked who I was and where I was going while standing in my own front yard. I gave him my name and date of birth and chastised him for not doing his job but rather, trying to create an incident.
      We have police officers here in Maricopa county that try to instigate  situations for no other apparent reason than to cause trouble for someone whose looks they don't like. It has happened to me. More than once. No, local cops don't need authority or responsibility to enforce Federal Law. Its just another way to bully the populace.
       The real danger in Senate Bill 1070 is not to undocumented workers but to Americans who think the Constitution will protect them from the likes of Joseph Arpaio and his band of thugs, hellbent on the witch-hunt and handcuffs approach to cleansing Arizona. It is a very small step to the next ethnic group to be persecuted.  Which group will that be? Of the estimated 11 million undocumented persons in the U.S., ICE estimates 5.5 million came to the country legally and merely overstayed their visas. And half of those are non-Hispanic. Who's next? Swedes? Brits? Do we really need to be protected from undocumented Canadians? I know almost as many of them as I do Mexicans without papers. They work, buy property, pay taxes like everybody else.
       Police here in Central Arizona need to be reined in, not given another excuse or tool to harass the good citizens of Phoenix and Maricopa County. Yes the federal law has been on the books a long time. It is not up to a state, any state, to sanction an individual whose status is defined by Federal Statute. It is a Federal responsibility. No Federal law states that I must carry an ID. State laws regarding driving, and the possession and use of alcohol and tobacco can and do require a State issued ID or a few very specific substitutes such as a passport or Military ID. I don't have to carry any identification to walk to the corner store for a candy bar. Yet 1070 gives local authorities the latitude to make up some facetious probable cause to ask for ID.And if I don't have it or decline to present it on demand, what then? Jail? A one way trip to Nogales? I have no doubt, given the prior acts of sworn officers that I can personally attest to, that this statute will be abused. I reiterate, I am an American and do not have to carry 'papers' to prove it.   I hope this post passes the grammar police test. What's next? The thought police test? lol

[jordandog]

I found this interesting. Obviously 'illegal immigrants' have ties that reach as far as The White House. The article states Obama did nothing to aid the process, but I am not so sure I believe that. After all, is it actually going to get out to 'the commoners and peons' like us if he did?
*******************************************************************************

Judge declares President Obama`s aunt can remain in the U.S.
Fort Lauderdale, FL 20 May 2010 10:00 PM G5T

WASHINGTON - After a six-year battle over her legal status in the country, Zeituni Onyango has been allowed to remain in the United States. Judge Leonard Shapiro ruled in her favor last Friday, giving the President`s aunt legal status in the country.  Onyango, 57, applied for asylum in 2002 after violent protests arose in her native country, Kenya. The half-sister of the president`s late father, Onyango was a legal resident at that time and had already received a Social Security card earlier that same year.

In 2004, the request Onyango filed for asylum was not approved, yet she continued to remain in the United States as an illegal immigrant. She was ordered to leave U.S. territory after appealing her rejection twice and losing both times. Five years later, in April of 2009, Judge Shapiro agreed to let Onyango remain in the United States while her request for asylum was being evaluated once again.

Last February, the trial came to a head as Onyango appeared in immigration court alongside her representative, Amy Cohn and two of her medical doctors. Onyango used her medical condition as the main reason for remaining in the United States. Her physicians also testified on her behalf.

President Obama chose to remain a neutral party throughout the proceedings. White House officials declared that the president `believes that the case should run its ordinary course.` Margaret Wong, one of Onyango`s immigration lawyers, also confirmed that Obama did not make a formal testament to the court regarding the proceedings.

Onyango`s immigration lawyers held a press conference on Monday afternoon in Ohio to discuss the positive outcome of her appeal.

[showbert22]

Bonus Post this is number33 but:
      Breaking News  Phony checkpoints set up in Mexico on the road from Arizona to Rocky Point!  Reportedly set up by disgruntled Mexicans to "get even" for Arizona's new anti-immigrant law.
   Breaking News#2 Phoenix mayor Phil Gordon under 24 hour police protection and surveillence due to death threats for his vocal opposition to the new state law.
    Someone please tell me how this State law can possibly be good for the state or the country.

[hwilliams591]

Bonus Post this is number33 but:
      Breaking News  Phony checkpoints set up in Mexico on the road from Arizona to Rocky Point!  Reportedly set up by disgruntled Mexicans to "get even" for Arizona's new anti-immigrant law.
   Breaking News#2 Phoenix mayor Phil Gordon under 24 hour police protection and surveillence due to death threats for his vocal opposition to the new state law.
    Someone please tell me how this State law can possibly be good for the state or the country.

Are you seriously asking because it is pretty obvious how this will be great for the state and the country.
With all of the polls still in a huge marginal favor of this "new" law and other states backing and wanting to do the same it is about time actions to "clean up this state take place.

I'm all for others coming from other countries to better themselves, BUT there are rules, laws that they must abide by. IF they can't then they should be sent packing.

This will open up some jobs, get rid of a lot of the crime and more importantly show that someone is finally willing to uphold the law.

[ivyruefthaler1]

disagree....

[Graeth]

I live here (AZ), I am a minority; and I agree that it is the right thing to do.

[klkwid]

I half agree with what they're doing, even though I think I may be in the minority here.  I think maybe they are taking it too far,  but it's true that if we, as Americans, travel to other countries, we need to carry our passports-why shouldn't people visiting here have to do the same??  Also, I see a lot of people saying this is a horrible idea, but I'm not seeing anyone offer any better way to do take care of the crime problem brought on by illegal immigrants-does anyone have a solution?  I think THAT would be a better topic for this conversation!